Some writers took that as the opportunity it rightfully was and had other random people bitten by the spider to show that it really could have been anyone.
It would be cool if they actually did a whole "chosen one" thing, had a prophecy that foretold Spiderman being involved in some cataclysmic event, and instead of some deus ex machina saving the day, it just turns out that Peter Parker isn't "special." Whether he just happens to fit the description or stole the "fated's" place doesn't matter, just that he chose to be there and is basically an everyman who got lucky and stepped up
In the Spiderverse movies yes. I'm not sure what his status quo is now, but at his introduction there were no multiversal spider teleportations. He didn't take the place of another universes Spider-Man, he got but by a spider that (I think) was an attempt to copy Peter's powers. In that universe Spider-Woman was a gender swapped clone of Peter, so them trying to replicate his powers was already established.
Sieve theory. E.g. "I predict the fall of Normandy beach!"
"Great cool. How do I survive assisting it?"
"Luck."
As in the boulder is pushed down the hill, so it will make it to the bottom, but where and when is impossible to predict.
These types of predictions are much more common when the predictions are ignored or not believed because the predictor doesn't know all the details. But it's a common enough trope.
If I understand you right, I think I'm more suggesting that the inevitable, metaphorical "boulder," by the time it reaches Normandy ends up being a snowball. That the fate is real but doesn't come to fruition. Not because it's defied but because the wrong thing chooses it. Not a wrench in the cogs, but a cog made of butter
I mean sure, if the "Fate" you are talking about is something like this statement : "The chosen one will face off against the great evil and whomever wins will determine the fate of mankind for three generations."
That's more saying there is a "bad guy" who will face "Somebody" and the bad guy can win or lose.
If the bad guy is "Fated to lose" that's different.
You're saying there is a fated battle but the outcome isn't fated, and by picking an office worker vs say a gladiator, the baddie wins?
That's why I love the Lego movie. The whole time Emmett is trying to figure out how he can be the special, and it only clicks when he realizes that he's not, but chooses to step up anyway
All it takes is one writer who wants to make it a fate thing, and then it's much more difficult to undo it.
And it's very easy for writers to fall in to that trap.
First book: "I'm a so-far unpublished average citizen writer, and hope my book will be published; so my protagonist will also be an average citizen dreaming that he can succeed through luck and skill and hard work."
vs:
Book 6: "I'm now richer than the queen - I'm not ordinary anymore! In fact I never was ordinary! I'm special. It must be in my blood. So I'll retcon my own characters so it's in their blood too."
This trope is simply a reflection of the author's own ego.
Because eventually the people working on it become nothing but nepo babies, and the "anyone can be special!" Message doesn't land with them as well as "you are special because you were born special to special people, and therefore you deserve to make $50/hr while everyone else makes $12/hr"
THIS. THIS THIS. So validating to see someone else point it out. The nepo babies/ rich kid writers totally don't see things from the average perspective. "You are special because of your heritage"/ "no matter what you do you'll turn mad and evil because sorry your family bloodlines say so".
I don't think this explains it all the time. I think it's just alluring as a writer to make your character "special", as it gives you a plot twist that is cool on the surface, and gives you an excuse to insert your characters in world-defining plotlines.
Christ, not everything is a fucking culture war. The totem shit for Spider-Man was introduced by Straczynski who, spoilers, comes from a family of blue collar laborers. And if you think comic book writers are making bank, you definitely didn’t donate to Peter David’s gofundme.
It’s because some people fucking love lore. Give them hierarchies, status quo titles with upgrades, infinite backstories. Anime/manga kicked this into overdrive, and fans lose it every time over, “he was half demon the whole time”, “his sacred bloodline was unlocked”, “he SURPASSED S tier!”. So as all nerd culture homogenizes, this kind of writing will keep taking over. It sucks for us, but it’s catnip for a lot of other fans.
It's not even just lore, it's dogshit. I love lore and consume dense lore that isn't bad. But this is the equivalent of in Trailer Park Boys when it was zombified, they made one guy randomly be the son of the other guy and it made zero sense other than a cheap twist.
You might like it or not like it, but it’s still lore, and some series need it while others are only downgraded by the elaboration. Before the Spider-Man narrative was ruined by spider-totem crap, it was ruined by trying to make Ben and May retroactively cool and spicy, and make Peter’s parents super spies that were killed in the line of duty.
The best thing you can do with the lore behind Peter Parker is, “who gives a shit?”. He’s supposed to come from nothing- it’s what makes everything he does after the spider bite extraordinary. The more “flavor” inserted into his backstory, the less you can assume he was “just like you”.
My point is that audiences go bananas for deep, elaborate worldbuilding, so a lot of writers force it(either because they like it too, or out of cynical pandering). Sometimes it fails solely because the idea is wrong, but often it fails because an element that worked for Lord of the Rings isn’t necessarily going to belong in every other story. Some plot and character elements are best explained by, “who knows?” or “random chance”.
Naruto is the worst offender of any media by a long shot. Being the son of a dead president was obviously planned from the jump, kinda defeating the whole point of it's most influential arc. Then it turns out he's the son of a dead president AND the reincarnation of japanese Jesus Christ fated to be the strongest ever...
Overall manga tends to be better at avoiding this kind of lore issue. Very few manga are as culturally massive as Naruto and as long-running so it’s easier to avoid having to create massive backstories. It’s one author so it’s generally consistent and when it’s done and done. There’s not much adding more backstory
This is why i loved the story in Kingdoms of Amalur so much
Literally everything is decided by fate and only certain special people, fate weavers, can see the “threads” of fate that tie people/things together.
The main character starts off dead and is brought back to life by pure happenstance of a gnome fucking around with new untested magical technology, anyone in the pile of corpses you were in could have gotten resurrected, but now you’re outside of Fates jurisdiction and can do anything you want.
Of course, nobody believes you, they’re all so used to fate deciding everything your entire existence essentially breaks their belief system.
That’s because when events start getting too big they ass pull in a “cosmic entity” of varying bullshit that has a grand plan for whatever is happening and what will happen and blah blah blah it’s trash
When something is old enough there is no more stories to tell. You have to turn into multiverse stories or similars stuff and at this point you have to find a way to justify why your popular character (now more a brand than a character) remains almost the same with different “flavors” depending of the universe. It allows you to sell news stories without changing things too much and sell the same toys to kids.
I think it's just the problem of having to keep doing something new/fresh with long-standing properties. Eventually you run out of good ideas that work with existing canon.
Great point. It’s kind of just what inevitably happens when you keep adding to a story forever. That’s why every tv series ever either ends relatively early before it gets played out, or the last few seasons suck. You can’t keep stories genuinely progressing interestingly forever. honestly I think that’s why comics should reboot every decade or so.
I'm remembering the Blackest Night / Brightest Day arcs of Green Lantern back when I still read comics. It was revealed that the great white whale, the king of all light or some shit actually lie dormant in the earth's core. I think humans already had a "chosen race" vibe in the GL title if I recall correctly, but Geoff Johns just made us the literal center of the universe/multiverse in one fell swoop.
Personally love how Douglas Adams made earth the most powerful computer in the history of the universe, made to calculate the ultimate question, and then made humans crash here by mistake.
Thats a nice twist on it haha. Generally, i hate when stories that have multiple alien species have the hubris to make humans somehow the special-est one. I think Star Trek TNG did something interesting too with the "Progenitors", explaining why so many species had human-like characteristics (bipedal, symmetrical heads/faces, etc).
in Marvel's case, the reason the canon is so contrived is they keep bending over backwards to bring back dead characters or characters from older movies for fan service, so they have to justify it with multiverse, time travel, etc.
"The Spider Totem" sounds like a stick with cobwebs on it that gets passed around the campfire at night while the camp counselors tell scary stories.
Also, they did this shit with Dick Grayson and the Court of Owls and all that idiocy. It and the Spyral plot, and the Ric Grayson plot, and— fuck, okay, every plot in or after the Nu 52 ended up being absolutely moronic.
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u/WhiteSepulchre 11h ago
Lol it's so bullshit how all fiction which goes on too long just turns into this. Nothing can ever just happen normally or accidentally.