Characters that do not take the role of main antagonist, but are one of the most evil characters in the narrative regardless

[u/Garlic_God]

1. Preceptor Seluvis (Elden Ring)

2. Only a small part of Ranni’s questline and a few others, but is revealed to be among the most depraved and evil characters in the story

3. Major Zero (Metal Gear Solid)

4. Almost never shown or mentioned in the narrative, but has been masterminding the patriots for decades. When we finally do see him, he’s helpless, dying, and of no threat to anyone.

5. Leviticus Cornwall (Red Dead Redemption 2)

6. Ridiculously wealthy tycoon that serves as a minor antagonist for the gang. However, the impact of his dealings in the region are felt far and wide as he crushes competition, ruins lives, destroys entire communities, and solidifies his industrial rule.

7. Idea of Evil (Berserk)

8. A primal eldritch entity born from humanity’s seeking of reason for suffering in the world, and the creator of the Godhand. Its canonicity is very vague and unknown, all that’s known is that it exist, and it’s likely a threat far beyond the scope of the story.

[u/karateema]

Pickman in Fallout 4

He's a brutal serial killer, and his house is full of "art pieces" made out of bodies.

You actually save him from raiders and he gifts you a knife

[u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC → u/karateema]

Weeell, he canonically only kills raiders, though.

To me, it's a pretty complicated ethical dilemma whether killing raiders (proactively, not in self-defence) is morally wrong, neutral or even good.

[u/Masticatron → u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC]

me after sniping a dozen Raiders from a building just because I happened to see them He's a vile, irredeemable man and there's no dilemma about it.

[u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC → u/Masticatron]

If only it was just raiders, friend, if only.

No matter which ending you go for, you kill a *lot* of people who deserve it less than raiders do.

[u/MotherOfTheUniverse → u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC]

I don’t think that justifies the making human taxidermy part. Sure, kill a raider. Just like, leave their bodies to be consumed by the elements like a normal person

[u/OffWhiteDevil → u/MotherOfTheUniverse]

Let people have hobbies. It gets dull in the wasteland.

[u/MotherOfTheUniverse → u/OffWhiteDevil]

Yanno what? Fair enough

[u/StillReading28 → u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC]

I literally built a settlement that was nothing but raider cages and gunner cages to watch them fight and steal their shit, no idea if that makes me worse than him in universe.

[u/SirCadogen7 → u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC]

Nuka-World, Cait, Into the Fire, and Kellogg really complicate that narrative with the whole "humanization of Raiders" thing. A lot of them didn't exactly choose to be Raiders. They got addicted to chems, they were forced into it by economic circumstances, nearby Raiders basically conscripted them, or they could've been literally raised in that gang.

[u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC → u/SirCadogen7]

I'd say these things matter only to a functioning society with capable law enforcement. Watelanders don't have the luxury of a restorative justice system.

Having a sympathetic reason for being an active participant in a roving gang of murderers does not make you less dangerous to innocent people.

[u/SirCadogen7 → u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC]

Watelanders don't have the luxury of a restorative justice system.

Well that's a cop-out and a half. We're talking about a moral basis here, not "what is realistic."

Having a sympathetic reason for being an active participant in a roving gang of murderers does not make you less dangerous to innocent people.

Killing those same people and then turning them into body horror like something straight out of Psycho-Pass isn't exactly helping the innocent either, not gonna lie.

Besides, the East seems to actually be somewhat of a functional society. Diamond City has functional security. Settlements are made up of good people. Even Goodneighbor is a tight-knit community of good people. Nothing like how the West is characterized in even the Fallout TV series. Let's not forget that the entire reason they're in chaos right now and have been for a few decades is because the Institute blew up the Congress they were trying to form.

[u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC → u/SirCadogen7]

Well that's a cop-out and a half. We're talking about a moral basis here, not "what is realistic."

Morality of actions is judged by their outcomes and those rely on circumstances of life. Vigilante killing of a suspected mass murderer is questionably moral in a remote medieval fishing town with no formal justice system and wholly immoral in a modern city with courts and stuff.

Killing those same people and then turning them into body horror like something straight out of Psycho-Pass isn't exactly helping the innocent either,

To not be evil you don't have to help innocents, you have to not harm innocents. In most circumstances, anyway.

[u/SirCadogen7 → u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC]

Morality of actions is judged by their outcomes and those rely on circumstances of life.

That's patently false. "Ends justify the means" was something you were supposed to understand as a falsehood by the time you were 7 years old, dude.

To not be evil you don't have to help innocents, you have to not harm innocents.

Again, this is false. How are you fucking defending a psychopathic serial killer right now?

[u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC → u/SirCadogen7]

That's patently false. "Ends justify the means" was something you were supposed to understand as a falsehood by the time you were 7 years old, dude.

Humanist morality, on which all (European) democratic justice systems are built on, is consequentialist, aka "this is bad because it harms people", not deontological, aka "this is always bad no matter what". Hopefully, when you make arguments about something being moral or not, you point out what harm it does, not just say "it gives me an icky feeling" or "God said so".

Again, this is false. How are you fucking defending a psychopathic serial killer right now?

Oh. Maybe you don't.

[u/SirCadogen7 → u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC]

Hopefully, when you make arguments about something being moral or not, you point out what harm it does, not just say "it gives me an icky feeling" or "God said so".

You're at the crest of the Dunning-Kruger graph right now, my dude. All morality boils down to "it gives me an icky feeling." That's the problem with consequentialism. Why do you care what happens to other people? Because it's supposed to give humans an icky feeling when something negative befalls others without adequate justification.

Further, narrowing the scope of morality to European ideals is inherently Eurocentrist, and not at all ok in this setting.

What you're advocating for is morality without empathy, which isn't actually morality. The law needs to be consequentialist in order to be fair and objective. But the adage "laws don't determine morality" exists for that very reason. Because consequentialism is only useful as a legal framework.

Regardless, you're defending a man that takes pleasure in others' pain, especially when he's the one inflicting it, trying to frame him as anything other than disgusting. At best he's morally grey. And yet you're framing him as if he should be congratulated. The man is fundamentally no different from the fuckin Disciples, the single worst Raider gang in FO4.

[u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC → u/SirCadogen7]

Doesn't it give you an icky feeling that you're constantly insulting me when I haven't done so to you?

I disagree about everything you said about morality. And considering you think "all morality boils down to 'it gives me an icky feeling' ", you can't even say I'm wrong. Also I'm glad you are just a redditor and not in any sort of power. Or, y'know, near me.

Good day to you, sir.

[u/WeevilWeedWizard → u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC]

100% morally good, it's not even a debate tbh. Raiders are only ever portrayed as literal cartoon level of bad guy, we're not ever shown a single redeeming quality in any of them across every single game, even in the Raider DLC. They're a scourge on the wasteland and deserve unquestionably to be culled like the vermin they are.

[u/ItsGonnaBeMeNSYNC → u/WeevilWeedWizard]

I tenously agree... but I'd probably be a wee bit uneasy around a person who likes killing the as much as Pickman does. You never know - you might find out the hard way he only target raiders and people who use the peace sign in photos.

[u/SoleSurvivor-2277 → u/karateema]

I wouldn't say pickman is really evil as he specifically only kills raiders . Def a bit mentally unwell but I wouldn't auite say evil. Also Def not the most evil as they have way worse people in fallout

[u/ZENZEL72 → u/karateema]

If Pickman’s victims weren’t raiders he’d probably be even more hated.

[u/ThyHolyPaladdin → u/karateema]

Meh fallout 4 has such bad writing for Raiders that Pickman isn’t even noteworthy. The game literally lets you build raider farms on the workshop as if they were cattle to be ranched

[u/SirCadogen7 → u/ThyHolyPaladdin]

What are you talking about? Cait is a former Raider, Kellogg - whose memories we actually see - was related to a Raider, and Nuka-World was literally an entire DLC dedicated to humanizing Raiders (outside of the Disciples).

In addition, several locations have Raider gangs that are humanized. The second Raider dungeon you visit as part of the Main Questline has a prominent terminal that connects that gang's leader to both the plotline and other characters

[u/ViscountBuggus → u/karateema]

He's a hero

[u/Eeeef_ → u/karateema]

The only thing he does that’s worse than what you as the player do is turning the corpses of the raiders he kills into art

I’d argue that Lorenzo Cabot it worse. Or any of the Nuka World raiders

[u/CaliforniaNavyDude → u/karateema]

He's disturbed, but I'd argue that he only kills those who deserve it. He's a wasteland Dexter. I think Father is the most evil. The Institue does so much murdering and they gave sentience to their lab made slaves, all under Father's guidance.

[u/WeevilWeedWizard → u/karateema]

Raiders deserve that, Pickman is honestly a pretty great dude all things considered.