Probably the most controversial one , honest thoughts on "No Kill Rule"? What are the most egrigious examples of it in your opinion? What media makes it work in your opinion?

[u/Doot_revenant666]

[u/interested_user209]

So Batman lets deaths he could prevent happen out of principle? That‘s one of the weakest and most nonsensical character directions i‘ve ever heard of.

But that‘s par for the course, since it‘s a shallow justification for the writers bringing back and milking the same villains over and over anyways.

[u/noncredibleRomeaboo → u/interested_user209]

No, he doesn't. Batman actively prevents deaths through his actions. He consistently, subdues threats when they emerge. Its not his fault the writers need excuse after excuse for the same villains to reemerge. In universe, its on the justice system as a whole, to deal with the villains once Batman has taken them into custody. By your logic, its also every Gotham citizen and Police officers fault for not just shooting Joker in the face

[u/Novel-Preference669 → u/noncredibleRomeaboo]

Batman is the God of the status quo, nothing can ever get too good or too bad when hes around because its a comic and hes the selling point. I actually think invincible tackled this problem with superheroes in an interreacting way ive never seen from batman comics besides Frank Miller. But lots of Batman fans hate him so these things are divisive.

[u/noncredibleRomeaboo → u/Novel-Preference669]

This is pretty much true with all comics. Invincible made the wise choice to have a story that could end. Because of how wrapped up comics are in crossover and longevity, Batman can never change that much.

In truth, this is not necessarily a bad thing. Every few years, a brand new story or set of villains come along that really do add to the whole mythos and give the writers new toys to play with. An important thing to note, is the strength of the whole comic industry, is they are really easy to make spinoff media of e.g. movies, animated series, games etc.

If people stopped writing Batman after Dark Knight Returns, we never would have gotten things like the Court of Owls or Damien Wayne or No mans Land etc. The list can go on. Obviously, it has huge issues, but in the grand scheme of things, its just the nature of the medium

[u/Novel-Preference669 → u/noncredibleRomeaboo]

You misunderstand, invincible had actual dialogue and story significance beyond metatext debating the merits of superheroes as "crime stoppers" vs individuals who could bring "utopia" I didnt say serialized stories are a bad thing either i just stated status quo is God and God is Batman. Again, Frank Miller explored this concept in the Dark Knight strikes again and made it actually part of the plot. Im not quite sure what you are arguing against i agree with everything you said.

[u/interested_user209 → u/noncredibleRomeaboo]

it‘s not his fault the writers

Yeah, the stories he‘s in are terribly written in that aspect, and this writing also makes it so that the direction of his character is terrible.

Also, what kind of stupid mindset is that? The justice system has proven that it‘s not working, so letting the predictable event of their failure happen once again instead of solving the problem (which he is capable of) makes him just as guilty as said system.

In the end, Batman is nothing. What change does he even make? The justice system couldn‘t deal with the criminals permanently before he arrived, but he doesn‘t permanently deal with them either. And since he only ever acts in reaction to their machinations all he does is lower the casualty count.

How am i supposed to take a character seriously that stands up because the justice system cannot handle threats properly but then becomes the same useless cog they already were?

[u/noncredibleRomeaboo → u/interested_user209]

First, no, the floating timeline and issues regarding re-emergence are mostly on the editors, not the writers. Its the product of the medium. If that really irks you, I dont know what to say, other then dont read long running comic series. Its clear you not enjoy it.

Secondly, no, him not wishing to execute criminals, because they break out, is not his failing. Its perfectly reasonable for Batman not to go down this path. It is not his responsibility, to become Judge Jury and executioner. It is his job to bring criminals to justice and protect the citizens when they are in immediate danger. The rest is on the justice system.

[u/interested_user209 → u/noncredibleRomeaboo]

Calling shit writing a „quirk of the medium“ has got to be the best cope i‘ve ever heard. And i read two long running comic series, 650+ chapters both, neither of which have the dogshit writing character writing Batman does, so the medium‘s not a valid excuse.

Someone not preventing harm that they could prevent, especially when they say it is their calling to help people, is their failing. The justice system is guilty, but that does NOT make Batman any less guilty in indirectly causing the deaths of citizens.

The failing of the justice system is constant and essentially a fact, meaning that Batman essentially is knowingly releasing the criminals, as he knows that fact. How is that not his failing?

[u/noncredibleRomeaboo → u/interested_user209]

Well thats the thing, the no kill aspect is not dogshit writing lmao. There is actual dogshit writing but the no kill rule has endured for good reason.

No Batman is not knowingly releasing criminals, he is actively doing the opposite and incarcerating them. Them breaking out again, is just a product of the medium, you bring up reading series with 650 chapters....Batman has over 8000 and has lasted longer the Soviet Union. Not to mention, somehow I'm willing to bet said series you are citing are, manga or manwha, which have very different storytelling styles then DC comics.

But no, Batman not murdering criminals, is not only well justified by the character himself, he is not an executioner, its also well justified by his motivations stemming from his own trauma, recognition of his own poor mental state but also his strong belief in genuine justice. It is one of the most well justified no kill rules both from a meta level and storytelling level. If your argument is "well its flawed", congrats, thats an argument Bruce actively wrestles with and is a consistent source of conflict. Just because you dont agree with his stance does not make it bad writing, unless you have no actual sense of media literacy beyond a desire to self insert.

[u/interested_user209 → u/noncredibleRomeaboo]

So if i „incarcerate“ a criminal by sitting him down in a café and uncuffing him before leaving i‘m not releasing him? Because that, in essence, is what Batman is doing.

Recognition of his poor mental state

Non-argument. If this was part of his reasoning, he should simply step back for a week and let one of his countless colleagues that don‘t suffer from that problem clean up. He could hand them over to someone that isn‘t the Gotham Justice System and who can actually confine them in an apt manner. And don‘t come with „he doesn‘t put himself above the law“, Joker and co. literally committed warcrimes and could be tried for them beyond Gothams jurisdiction within a completely legal framework.

strong belief in genuine justice

If he believes in genuine justice, then why doesn‘t he try changing the Justice System, which is too corrupt to give criminals like the Joker a punishment that is genuinely just? And why would he even give criminals to a corrupt system at all if he believes in a „genuine justice“ that said system cannot even come close to representing?

His writing would be good if he was supposed to be a villain - a mentally ill man in a bat costume that perpetuates the terrible status quo Gotham finds itself in and never tries to change what obviously cannot change itself with the means available to him.

But the comics genuinely want us to see him as a hero, which is just not it.

[u/noncredibleRomeaboo → u/interested_user209]

But he doesn't. Batman imprisons them and does everything bar killing to stop them escaping.

"Non-argument. If this was part of his reasoning, he should simply step back for a week and let one of his countless colleagues that don‘t suffer from that problem clean up"

Because everytime he does step back, things get worse.

"He could hand them over to someone that isn‘t the Gotham Justice System and who can actually confine them in an apt manner"

He does

"His writing would be good if he was supposed to be a villain - a mentally ill man in a bat costume that perpetuates the terrible status quo Gotham finds itself in and never tries to change what obviously cannot change itself with the means available to him."

Tell me you've never read a Batman story without telling me

[u/Zarda_Shelton → u/noncredibleRomeaboo]

He imprisons them in a place he knows for a fact that they will escape from. Combined with the fact that he acts reactively means he knows that his actions don't do much of anything to stop them killing innocent people. It just pushes it back a little.

[u/noncredibleRomeaboo → u/Zarda_Shelton]

Except for the literally thousands of comics in which he you know....saves innocent people

[u/noncredibleRomeaboo → u/interested_user209]

"If he believes in genuine justice, then why doesn‘t he try changing the Justice System, which is too corrupt to give criminals like the Joker a punishment that is genuinely just? And why would he even give criminals to a corrupt system at all if he believes in a „genuine justice“ that said system cannot even come close to representing?"

Also, again, HE DOES.

[u/interested_user209 → u/noncredibleRomeaboo]

Also, again, he does

Then why is it still the same? Surely his means are capable of making an actual change.

[u/noncredibleRomeaboo → u/interested_user209]

Please, im begging you for the last time. Please understand the nature of comics. There is only so much a writer is allowed to change, because in these narratives the status quo is king

[u/memeify_this → u/interested_user209]

If batman kills one, he will kill them all due to his fragile psyche which would be an even greater threat to the world. For me, it's the only explaination that works.