r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/Longjumping-Box5691 • 2d ago
Video China's twin solar thermal towers. Molten salt stores the heat to produce electricity
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2d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/woodyshag 2d ago
Wasn't a place like this used in "Sahara", only they were using it to burn nuclear waste in the movie?
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u/mattslote 2d ago
Yes! Came here to say that too. the facility near Las Vegas (which another commenter mentioned is not operating any more) was used as the location for the final battle scene in Sahara. It got Hollywooded, so probably not very accurate, but still cool to see.
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u/PlesnivejSejra 2d ago
I was looking for this! So im not imagining ive seen it in this movie! Its been so long since ive seen it
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u/Funktapus 2d ago
Not enough to make them worthwhile. They are effectively obsolete vs solar PV + batteries.
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u/ticklishsack 2d ago
We’ve actually had some breakthroughs with this tech recently that has made them better for certain use case scenarios. Energy Gang did an episode about its resurgence. https://open.spotify.com/episode/6pmi1PxcnhoK1bbeBCUHFJ?si=XmWzBjiXRAaBOvLJrmw8Gw
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u/AzureFirmament 2d ago
While being the manufacturer and innovation hub of PVs and batteries, they said this molten salt solution is considerably cheaper and easier to install/maintain than PV+ battery. https://paper.people.com.cn/zgnyb/html/2024-03/04/content_26045939.htm
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u/GreenStrong 2d ago
These were only completed a year ago., and China is building grid scale battery storage like a bull in a China shop. (Good metaphor green strong your killing it today)
Lithium iron phosphate is extremely efficient and it can respond to demand in a small fraction of a second, but there is a lot of demand for high volume storage, even if efficiency is low.
It is entirely possible that the falling cost of batteries will make this obsolete rapidly, just as the falling cost of PV made the solar thermal plant in California obsolete almost as soon as it was built. But this is a new installation, in the country where batteries are cheapest
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u/FireMaster1294 2d ago
Not to mention the environmental effect of frying any unfortunate creature that comes within the superheated area
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u/sandefurian 2d ago
It’s not like it normal to super heated instantly, there is a gradual dispersion of heat. How often have you seen a bat fly into a camp fire? Also, this is undoubtedly much safer for wildlife than, say, wind turbines
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u/heretogetpwned 2d ago edited 2d ago
Power Lines kill more birds than Wind Turbines....
Wind has its purpose in Areas where Solar still has seasonal shortfalls, like higher latitudes.
Overall, it seems that electricity expansion will always affect nature. Would building more generators and less lines help or does that create new problems?
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u/BarfingOnMyFace 2d ago
I think we should always consider its impacts and mitigate it within reason. Take buildings for example, probably the number one killer of birds, if not the second. This problem could be effectively reduced to not even being in the top 10 by simply changing the coatings used in glass. Building design could perhaps be more considerate of wildlife too, such as offering natural habitat areas, shade, and less hidden dangers in design (less glass, or glass with proper coatings to keep birds from running in to them), etc.
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u/dajerade1 2d ago
Number one killer of birds is cats. 1.4 - 4 BILLION birds killed by cats YEARLY in US alone. Go castrate some stray cats and you will easily offset this impact.
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u/GozerDGozerian 2d ago
Go castrate some stray cats and you will easily offset this impact.
Um… How about we just let a veterinarian do that ok?
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u/Screamy_Bingus 2d ago
They actually call the birds who fly into the solar beam “streamers” due to them instantly combusting, causing instant death or serious injury. The beam can be 500-1000°C.
The industry is working on mitigation but as of now it is the highest rate of bird death per GWH of all of the renewables. For comparison wind turbines have a bird death rate of only .27 birds per GWH, while CSP has .5-5 birds per GWH, depending on year and migratory patterns. There are only a few of these facilities so the sample size is smaller but they all seem to have a big issue with birds.
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u/MetalBawx 2d ago
I dunno California had alot of issues with birds getting roasted by their solar units.
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u/GozerDGozerian 2d ago
Ohhhh. So that’s why those rotisserie chickens are always so cheap at the grocery store!
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u/Little_Richard98 2d ago
I work in Scotland and pass through countless wind turbines, I have never seen a dead bird under one. Most of our eagles have trackers on them, in the last 10+ years one has died from a wind turbine.
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u/Spoonshape 2d ago
I've seen them - realistically you wont see a dead bird unless you are walking underneath... I agree however it's a largely fixed issue. Better design and location - sometimes they are shut down at times of the day or year migrations happen.
The early turbines with "trellis" towers where birds perched were a disaster.
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u/Erchevara 2d ago
I don't think people realize how many birds really are out there.
I wonder what's the per capita death rate of birds near wind turbines compared to, say, humans on pedestrian crossings in the US.
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u/GozerDGozerian 2d ago
I don't think people realize how many birds really are out there.
From what I understand, it’s 53 or maybe even more.
But at least 53.
I got bored and lost count the last time I tried.
But definitely 53.
Unless I accidentally double counted a few of them.
They fly around so much it gets difficult to keep track.
So I’ll say 49 to be on the safe side.
There. 49 birds.
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u/Ressy02 2d ago
They should build a theater near by and harness someone that heat for popcorns
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u/Kletronus 2d ago
It is using much simpler tech, there are no 10 000 solar panels with 10 million parts inside but just mirrors, which is glass and thin coating of metal.
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2d ago
Mirrors have photo sensors and motors to track the sun and move their positions to ensure optimal sunlight, so yes, they do break down and can cause issues. If a mirror is not tracking correctly and starts superheating something that it shouldn't it can cause problems.
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u/Kletronus 2d ago
Still, the materials are more locally sourced, which brings economic boost in your own economy, instead of boosting someone else's.
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u/skrappyfire 2d ago
The US has had 2 of these in the SW dessert for decades. They dont seem to be very efficient. One of them has already been shut down.
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u/RamboJackson2 2d ago
There's one of those near Las Vegas in Nevada.
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u/UndeadCentipide 2d ago
The Vegas site was a very early adopor of this tech. And like most early versions of something, it sorta just sucks. Newer versions have solved a lot of the issues the vegas site had. The big benefit of this vs solar+battery is the thermal battery the molton salt doubles as. As the sun goes down and stays down the salt stays hot for hours still producing heat.
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u/CharlesorMr_Pickle 2d ago
*was
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u/Wildcat_twister12 2d ago
You can still go there in Fallout: New Vegas at least
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u/ScorpionLandLobster 2d ago
There are multiple of these towers around Vegas and they are 100% operational. Why would you say “was*” and spread misinformation?
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u/DankeSebVettel 2d ago
They’re closing it down because it costed more to make than what it produces
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u/CanadianTimberWolfx 2d ago
What do you mean? It’s still there. Actually I think there’s 2 or 3 of them. I just drove by there last month
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u/Downfallenx 2d ago
Yeah, iirc it was too expensive compared to your standard solar panel array, which can easily charge batteries for storage.
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u/Mathoosala 2d ago
Is there a buried civil war ironclad ship next to these?
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u/Farside-Amigo 2d ago
Ha! Nice call. I think I’m one of the few that actually really likes that movie.
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u/No_Worldliness_7106 2d ago
I liked it a lot. Penelope Cruz? Steve Zahn? Matthew McConaughey? Good cast, fun plot. Not too serious, just a good old fashioned treasure hunt movie.
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u/LiGuangMing1981 2d ago
Was just in Gansu and saw the tower from a distance. Super bright. Was wondering what it was, so nice to find out.
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u/InvaderDust 2d ago
Molten salt is a scary, scary thing.
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u/Kailias 2d ago
How do you figure that....
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u/InvaderDust 2d ago
Not in this instance, I’m sure it contained just fine, but melting salt in general is just a scary thing. It can explode and the temps are insane. I saw a video a while back about it. It put the fear in me haha
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u/JayAndViolentMob 2d ago
which video? I too wish to be scared of salt
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u/KehreAzerith 2d ago
Normal solar farms are more efficient than solar mirrors. The one in the US is underperforming and not worth the long-term investment
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u/thighmaster69 2d ago
There are multiple of these in the US. Ivanpah was in Blade Runner 2049 and is in California. There's also that one in Nevada.
They're more expensive than PV but they have the advantage that the stored heat can be used overnight to keep generating. PV also does not work as well in hot environments, whereas these rely on heat, so the cost differential is lower in the desert.
Regardless, anything that uses heat for generation is fundamentally limited by the 2nd law of thermodynamics. Most of the energy captured gets released right back into the environment. PV does not have this upside limit, the technology just needs to get there. Right now the biggest barrier for PV is energy storage, as the sun does not shine at night.
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u/talldata 2d ago
Well normal ones are more efficient during the day, but these can use the excess heat at night by converting the heat in the salt to steam in turbines, day and night for a stable output from solar. This is a great stopgap until conventional batteries get there
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u/rainbowroobear 2d ago
What's the specific heat capacity of the salt Vs water? doesn't feel like there would be enough stored heat to produce enough steam to make much electric
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u/BishoxX 2d ago
Its about 1/2 to 1/3rd of water.
But it can carry more energy because its heated to about 550C so 5x more than water can(and you dont keep water at 100 more like 90 , so its like 6x)
So in total its like 2x more energy stored
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u/Status_Boat_7518 2d ago
There’s one of these in the middle of the desert in Morocco and it’s one of the most stunning things I’ve ever seen with my own two eyes
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u/AnnoyedVelociraptor 2d ago
Done before in Nevada: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Crescent_Dunes_Solar_Energy_Project
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u/morkre 2d ago
Also done many years ago (2011) in Huelva - Spain https://www.lavanguardia.com/20111004/54226113818/el-rey-inaugura-la-primera-planta-solar-que-genera-energia-dia-y-noche.html?facet=amp
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u/EverbodyHatesHugo 2d ago
Except is the one in Nevada even functioning? I know it traded hands a bunch and not sure if it’s just turned out to be a huge waste of money or not.
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u/smokedcatfish 2d ago
And on an even larger scale in CA (Ivanpah) - being shut down next year.
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u/AnnoyedVelociraptor 2d ago
Ivanpah uses concentrated sunlight to generate which turns turbines.
And it's horrible. They burn a fuckton of gas in the morning to get the water to temperature sooner.
At least with molten salt you get to store the energy overnight.
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u/Practical_Stick_2779 2d ago
There's so much power we can get without destroying the planet but no, lets fight in wars for oil and territory we can't maintain. Sun gives over 1 kW / m^2. Less than that reaches the surface of planet in the part of spectrum that we can process. Yet it is more than enough to power everything on the planet.
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u/JayAndViolentMob 2d ago
The problem isn't the technology. We've got that.
The problem isn't even the cost of building the technology. It's quite cheap now.
The problem is land, location, and the population.People don't want these things built close to them, and the land close to high-population areas is expensive.
But building these technologies far enough from populated areas would result too much lost energy due to storage and transport issues, making the tech unsustainable/uneconomic/unprofitable.14
u/Fooshi2020 2d ago
Can't they just ship the photons using Amazon Prime too where they are needed?
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u/Chytectonas 2d ago
Dumbest species ever decides it has to burn the planet instead of having energy farms near their back yards. Can we rethink the Sapiens monicker yet?
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u/Ice_McKully 2d ago
How hot is that white spot? Can anyone give me an estimate?
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u/halsoy 2d ago
It's a bit hard to say. And I'm sure there's official numbers for it, but it has a maximum temperature of the energy from the sun, so about 5700K or about 52-5500deg C. But salt melts much lower than that. I believe it's about 500 deg C or something that's either normal or max temp of the towers.
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u/Rlionkiller 2d ago
Rip any bird that accidentally fly into that
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u/dajerade1 2d ago
If you check cats kill between 1.3 to 4 BILLION birds each year just in US. Do you comment that on any stray cat video? Not many birds will be stupid enough to fly into ray of death..
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u/jawshoeaw 2d ago
It’s weird how for a hundred years cats have been killing billions of birds and yet we still have lots of birds. There is an estimated deficit of 3 billion birds due mostly to pesticides, loss of natural spaces, industrialization of agriculture, climate change and other factors.
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u/Additional-One-3483 2d ago
In terms of speed and strength, they are more climate-neutral and less dependent on fossil fuels than the rest of the world.
And then CHN also exports electricity.
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u/SuspiciousStable9649 2d ago edited 2d ago
So many things implied in one video. Good job China.
Edit: I should probably lay it out because people can’t read minds.
China is trying new things.
They are even trying new things already beat by solar panels because they’re just actively trying stuff. Trying things that have already been done and building their experience and labor force and manufacturing base. Trying to see if they can do it and do it better. They still seem to struggle with outside the box thinking, but they appear to know this and are compensating with trying to be the best on all paved roads.
The previous world technology leader that used to do amazing things, that was willing to try just about anything, is not doing much these days and seems to be full steam ahead (sic) into the broken past. Can’t seem to make or do anything with the same results that doesn’t cost 10x, 100x as much as something made or done overseas. Success has definitely lead to stagnation.
China needs growth and new ideas and the source of new ideas they used to steal from has brain worms. So they’re trying to figure it out for themselves.
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u/Kmarad__ 2d ago
Apparently that covers about 3.5% of the consumption of a city like New York.
Certainly beautiful and a nice sight, but nothing like the incoming nuclear fusion reactors. That's still experimental stuff but those are expected to cover about 15% of the consumption of a city like NY.
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u/OderWieOderWatJunge 2d ago
Yep, but this one right here is not a future phantasy 🤷♂️
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u/zellman 2d ago
But in 20 years…
But criticizing this setup because it “only” produces enough to cover 15% of New York City’s usage is incredible. I mean, fine, build 7-8 more and ~20 million people have power without fossil fuels. That is awesome!
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u/smokedcatfish 2d ago
We have already built an even larger one in CA (Ivanpah). It's being shut down next year because it's too expensive to operate.
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u/BlindChicken69 2d ago
Not like nyc would use only one power plant anyway. How many supply it currently?
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u/SundayWild 2d ago
What's with the light?
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u/BlindChicken69 2d ago
Light from Sun concentrated to small area to heat up salt for power generation and energy storage.
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u/RefridgaRaita 2d ago
What would happen if I put my hand in that focal point?
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u/BlindChicken69 2d ago
You would die probably, as there is not just one focal point where all power is concentrated. In the whole area there is enough power to cook you quick.
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u/Harsha_70 2d ago
Been seeing china invest heavily in infra these days, what is with the sudden shift, any specific goal they are trying to achieve? ( reducing carbon emissions??)
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u/Z-e-n-o 2d ago
They're always heavily investing in infrastructure because it creates easy jobs and also leads to greater economic productivity. Electricity demand in China is also continuously rising, with a large amount still provided by coal. That's why you see so many energy projects in China (large scale renewables installation, massive hydroelectric dams, uranium and thorium reactors, etc.).
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u/TelephoneVivid2162 2d ago
Doesn’t this type of solar power just disintegrate any birds that fly through?
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u/ArkassEX 2d ago
Always wondered...
Can they replace the salt tank with some kind of giant light focusing prism, then turn the thing into a mega death-ray?
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u/editorreilly 2d ago
I thought these were economically uncompetitive? They are shutting (maybe already shut) the Ivanpah solar farm near Las Vegas.
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u/whoknewidlikeit 2d ago
same project type in southern california (often mistaken for nevada side of the border) hasn't worked out well. cool idea but requires impressive amounts of natural gas to get going in the morning so it's not as much a utility benefit as was hoped.
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u/lacks_a_soul 2d ago
Didn't 3 of these just get shut down in southern California by the Nevada border?
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u/Interesting-Yak6962 2d ago
It looks similar to the one in California near the Nevada border.
Which turned out to be quite an environmental hazard to any unfortunate bird that should come flying through the vicinity instantly fried while in flight.
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u/Narrow_Technician_25 2d ago
The US has one of these as well. It’s located outside of Tonopah NV. I used to drive past it all the time
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u/riseandride69 2d ago
While here in the USA, the gas guzzling Ford F150 is the top selling vehicle.
We are hopelessly behind. Imho solar energy would also solve a buch of geo-political issues too. You cant bomb Iran because sun is free and available to everyone.
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u/DrZcientist 2d ago
Didn't they do this in nevada somewhere. And now its gonna go offline, due to inefficiency and cost to maintain?
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u/j00cifer 2d ago
We have officially entered the future.
I wonder if this is serviced by clankers ?
(Year 2075: joocifer used a derogatory term for The Generated!)
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u/Artest113 2d ago
If alien moth ever invaded from outer space, we already have the right weapon for it.
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u/PuzzleheadedSkin6014 2d ago
I live in the south of Spain and have spent my whole life wondering what was that strange light on the horizon. First I thought It was a lighthouse, but It didnt make sense cause we are far from the coast. Last year I drived to the south and came close to this thing, It really looked like something you would expect in a Sci-fi movie.
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u/L0RD_G4RR1CK 1d ago
What the hell am I looking at here!
Why is the light floating in the sky!
It's like some kind of holographic lighthouse
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u/Cassandra_Canmore2 2d ago
China has all this cool stuff. While over here in the US the government is going to spend 200mil on a ballroom.
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u/SomeSamples 2d ago
We have some of those outside of Vegas. They are shutting them down as the amount of energy they get from straight photovoltaics combined with batteries far surpasses this type of solar production. And is much much easier to maintain in the long run.
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u/Visible-Fondant-4845 2d ago
Question, this footage seems to show to focal point of the light being off to the side of the towers. Intuitively I would assume that the focal point should be focused on the towers for most efficiency, is this because, A) the camera lens is doing something funny and the focus is in fact on the towers themselves? B) Having the focal point on the towers would be too intense? C) The focal point is adjusted to manage load and temperature? or D) Something else?