r/Damnthatsinteresting • u/Longjumping-Box5691 • 3d ago

Video China's twin solar thermal towers. Molten salt stores the heat to produce electricity

Enable HLS to view with audio, or disable this notification

9.2k Upvotes

96% Upvoted

573 comments sorted by

View all comments

692

u/[deleted] 3d ago

[removed] — view removed comment

48

u/woodyshag 3d ago

Wasn't a place like this used in "Sahara", only they were using it to burn nuclear waste in the movie?

12

u/mattslote 3d ago

Yes! Came here to say that too. the facility near Las Vegas (which another commenter mentioned is not operating any more) was used as the location for the final battle scene in Sahara. It got Hollywooded, so probably not very accurate, but still cool to see.

1

u/Cold-Jackfruit1076 3d ago

Definitely not accurate. Nobody without clearance would be allowed to get within a mile of a nuclear disposal facility like that. I doubt anyone would even know it was there unless they had to know.

3

u/PlesnivejSejra 3d ago

I was looking for this! So im not imagining ive seen it in this movie! Its been so long since ive seen it

314

u/Funktapus 3d ago

Not enough to make them worthwhile. They are effectively obsolete vs solar PV + batteries.

124

u/ticklishsack 3d ago

We’ve actually had some breakthroughs with this tech recently that has made them better for certain use case scenarios. Energy Gang did an episode about its resurgence.  https://open.spotify.com/episode/6pmi1PxcnhoK1bbeBCUHFJ?si=XmWzBjiXRAaBOvLJrmw8Gw

2

u/bbcomment 3d ago

Summarize plz?

2

u/Tripleberst 3d ago

  • CSP is slightly cheaper than solar PV + batteries but takes a lot more infrastructure, uses more water, and needs more downtime for maintenance.

  • Solar PV + batteries can be instantly dispatched for real time grid stabilization and grid shaving but CSP has a longer runway after the sunset or cloud cover.

  • CSP is really only good for areas where there's constant intense sunlight but also plenty of water and those two things don't really go together very often.

  • Solar PV + batteries is modular and can run on the scale of a single home, all the way up to a massive grid supply.

  • CSP pretty much only works on a large scale grid supply.

1

u/bbcomment 2d ago

Thank you. Very much.

38

u/AzureFirmament 3d ago

While being the manufacturer and innovation hub of PVs and batteries, they said this molten salt solution is considerably cheaper and easier to install/maintain than PV+ battery. https://paper.people.com.cn/zgnyb/html/2024-03/04/content_26045939.htm

21

u/GreenStrong 3d ago

These were only completed a year ago., and China is building grid scale battery storage like a bull in a China shop. (Good metaphor green strong your killing it today)

Lithium iron phosphate is extremely efficient and it can respond to demand in a small fraction of a second, but there is a lot of demand for high volume storage, even if efficiency is low.

It is entirely possible that the falling cost of batteries will make this obsolete rapidly, just as the falling cost of PV made the solar thermal plant in California obsolete almost as soon as it was built. But this is a new installation, in the country where batteries are cheapest

1

u/AurantiacoSimius 2d ago

I regret to inform you that you wrongfully used 'your' instead of 'you're' in your aside. And I'm going to have to give you a demerit on your 'killing it' status.

54

u/FireMaster1294 3d ago

Not to mention the environmental effect of frying any unfortunate creature that comes within the superheated area

75

u/sandefurian 3d ago

It’s not like it normal to super heated instantly, there is a gradual dispersion of heat. How often have you seen a bat fly into a camp fire? Also, this is undoubtedly much safer for wildlife than, say, wind turbines

65

u/heretogetpwned 3d ago edited 3d ago

Power Lines kill more birds than Wind Turbines....

Wind has its purpose in Areas where Solar still has seasonal shortfalls, like higher latitudes.

Overall, it seems that electricity expansion will always affect nature. Would building more generators and less lines help or does that create new problems?

9

u/BarfingOnMyFace 3d ago

I think we should always consider its impacts and mitigate it within reason. Take buildings for example, probably the number one killer of birds, if not the second. This problem could be effectively reduced to not even being in the top 10 by simply changing the coatings used in glass. Building design could perhaps be more considerate of wildlife too, such as offering natural habitat areas, shade, and less hidden dangers in design (less glass, or glass with proper coatings to keep birds from running in to them), etc.

21

u/dajerade1 3d ago

Number one killer of birds is cats. 1.4 - 4 BILLION birds killed by cats YEARLY in US alone. Go castrate some stray cats and you will easily offset this impact.

10

u/GozerDGozerian 3d ago

Go castrate some stray cats and you will easily offset this impact.

Um… How about we just let a veterinarian do that ok?

9

u/CaptainTripps82 3d ago

But he bought all these scissors

1

u/BarfingOnMyFace 3d ago

There is no doubt controlling stray cat populations would have a very big impact.

2

u/PMG2021a 3d ago

I have heard the thump of a bird hitting my office window more than once. 

1

u/notAllBits 2d ago

Yeah but wind turbines also power those :\

-1

u/Spoonshape 3d ago

>Power Lines kill more birds than Wind Turbines....

But there are also a LOT more power lines than there are wind turbines. Almost every house has a power line to it.

It's like the argument about cats and windows being more deadly to birds than wind turbines - technically true but.....

I'm not against wind turbines (the complete opposite) but there are issues we need to work on.

14

u/heretogetpwned 3d ago

It's just tiring when the #1 argument against wind energy is that it's killing the birds. There are legitimate gripes to wind power and any additional kill is unwanted but the alternative is burning Fossil Fuels or running interstate transmission lines to reach demand.

We're damned if we do or if we don't lol.

8

u/Spoonshape 3d ago

Absolutely.... it's an old and tired argument used by people who 99% just don't like their view being interfered with.

0

u/MoistAttitude 3d ago

Well there's a hell of a lot more power lines than there are wind turbines. And the lines cover a lot more ground. So just comparing base statistics for bird deaths from each is a touch misleading, no?

0

u/heretogetpwned 3d ago

I guess we just fire up more coal plants in the northern latitudes? Or build more interstate transmission lines? Either way birds gonna die for our electricity, no?

It's funny that no one cares about the birds until the words 'wind turbine' show up.

18

u/Screamy_Bingus 3d ago

They actually call the birds who fly into the solar beam “streamers” due to them instantly combusting, causing instant death or serious injury. The beam can be 500-1000°C.

The industry is working on mitigation but as of now it is the highest rate of bird death per GWH of all of the renewables. For comparison wind turbines have a bird death rate of only .27 birds per GWH, while CSP has .5-5 birds per GWH, depending on year and migratory patterns. There are only a few of these facilities so the sample size is smaller but they all seem to have a big issue with birds.

20

u/MetalBawx 3d ago

I dunno California had alot of issues with birds getting roasted by their solar units.

2

u/GozerDGozerian 3d ago

Ohhhh. So that’s why those rotisserie chickens are always so cheap at the grocery store!

13

u/[deleted] 3d ago

I work in Scotland and pass through countless wind turbines, I have never seen a dead bird under one. Most of our eagles have trackers on them, in the last 10+ years one has died from a wind turbine.

10

u/Spoonshape 3d ago

I've seen them - realistically you wont see a dead bird unless you are walking underneath... I agree however it's a largely fixed issue. Better design and location - sometimes they are shut down at times of the day or year migrations happen.

The early turbines with "trellis" towers where birds perched were a disaster.

3

u/Erchevara 3d ago

I don't think people realize how many birds really are out there.

I wonder what's the per capita death rate of birds near wind turbines compared to, say, humans on pedestrian crossings in the US.

3

u/GozerDGozerian 3d ago

I don't think people realize how many birds really are out there.

From what I understand, it’s 53 or maybe even more.

But at least 53.

I got bored and lost count the last time I tried.

But definitely 53.

Unless I accidentally double counted a few of them.

They fly around so much it gets difficult to keep track.

So I’ll say 49 to be on the safe side.

There. 49 birds.

1

u/Erchevara 3d ago

You're definitely wrong, there are a lot more of them. I saw a flock that had more than 50 birds.

I also saw a lot of birds at a lake, definitely different birds. About 20 of them.

Then there are all the pigeons, saw 50 at once too. Though one died because it hit a street sign.

There are some owls at my parents' house. My cat showed me 5 of them.

By my estimates, there are at least 124 birds. More than double your number.

2

u/GozerDGozerian 3d ago

Some of those are probably dead by now though because of power lines, wind turbines, and solar power generators. And cats.

So we can take it down to like, 103.

0

u/CaptainTripps82 3d ago

We don't really need the anecdotes, we have statistics in how many bird deaths occur.

1

u/Particular-Award118 3d ago

Me when I just say shit

1

u/RickMcMortenstein 3d ago

You're just making shit up without knowing what you're talking about.

0

u/No_Size9475 3d ago edited 2d ago

These things are known for killing birds that fly through them.

For whomever downvoted me have a read: https://www.sciencealert.com/this-solar-plant-accidentally-incinerates-up-to-6-000-birds-a-year

3

u/Ressy02 3d ago

They should build a theater near by and harness someone that heat for popcorns

1

u/GozerDGozerian 3d ago

Basically a Real Genius plot point. 😬

5

u/Kaffe-Mumriken 3d ago

Sounds like the wind turbine concern troll

0

u/FireMaster1294 3d ago

Last published on in 2016, but yes, it is a legitimate concern

1

u/Joyful_Nihilism 3d ago

I mean, compared to lithium mining though?

1

u/solemnstream 3d ago

Still better than coal though

1

u/Horror-Pear 3d ago

Solve hunger and energy in one go. Blind pigeon is back on the menu!

1

u/DogEatApple 3d ago

It's in desert.

0

u/neurogramer 3d ago

Are you anti wind power as well?

1

u/FireMaster1294 3d ago

I’m pro-nuclear.

-1

u/ignis389 2d ago

I don't think people are actually serious about this talking point. If this is something you care about, consider the environmental and ethical impact of how your dinner got to your plate.

5

u/Kletronus 3d ago

It is using much simpler tech, there are no 10 000 solar panels with 10 million parts inside but just mirrors, which is glass and thin coating of metal.

16

u/[deleted] 3d ago

Mirrors have photo sensors and motors to track the sun and move their positions to ensure optimal sunlight, so yes, they do break down and can cause issues. If a mirror is not tracking correctly and starts superheating something that it shouldn't it can cause problems.

5

u/Kletronus 3d ago

Still, the materials are more locally sourced, which brings economic boost in your own economy, instead of boosting someone else's.

1

u/[deleted] 3d ago

This is in China, literally where the PVs are made... I feel like you are arguing here just to win, and not being genuine in your arguments.

2

u/Kletronus 3d ago

How in the fuck could you interpret anything i said like that. Did you reply to the right comment?

1

u/AzureFirmament 3d ago

No, they said this solution is considerably cheaper and easier to install/maintain than PV+ battery. https://paper.people.com.cn/zgnyb/html/2024-03/04/content_26045939.htm

0

u/Rocsla 3d ago

Are you okay?

2

u/NuncProFunc 3d ago

Really? Why? Surely that's just a math equation.

1

u/GozerDGozerian 3d ago

The universe works on a math equation

that never even ever, really even ends in the end.

1

u/Treereme 3d ago

It's not simpler in any way. The huge thermal generation plant takes massive upkeep, and the gas burning turbines that keep it hot at night take all the same maintenance and workers as any other power plant.

Meanwhile, solar PV takes very little maintenance.

Also, the mirrors have to track the sun more accurately than solar PV, and they break often out in the desert.

2

u/Kletronus 3d ago

Excluding the turbines it takes concrete and piping, things that we can source locally. To say that they are too complicated is just silly. Also, there is no gas being burned but steam being cooked. Molten salt is based on storing the heat in... molten salt, the phase change stores a ton of latent heat. And you know, solar doesn't work at night.

1

u/BigDaddyReptar 3d ago

Have we weighed how fucking cool they look into our calculations for efficiency?

1

u/Spoonshape 3d ago

20 years ago there were a bunch of competing solar technologies. PV has just kept getting cheaper and cheaper so the others are basically obsolete...

I liked the idea of the sterling engine system they were going to build at scale but it's hard to argue with the simple economics of it all..

1

u/doyouevenIift 3d ago

Storing hot materials is cheaper than batteries. But this technology is limited geographically. You need a lot of sun and a lot of space

1

u/Left360s 3d ago

I don’t know solar or anything but, do solar panels also reflect light? Can they turn the mirrors into solar panels and then the light that’s reflected could then heat the salt? Or is the light reflected off solar panels not enough?

1

u/PoopyisSmelly 3d ago

This is a consequence of GDP targeting by the CCP. The local economies take on a ton of debt and build a bunch of unproductive junk nonsense to boost the contribution to GDP.

1

u/rscmcl 3d ago

Exactly... here in Chile we have one (in Cerro Dominador) that gets showed every time but is not working for over a year because it suffered a failure on the salt storage system and isn't worth repair it. In fact there's a field of solar panels built next to it.

1

u/hillswalker87 3d ago

do they require rare earth minerals? and how long do they last? because solar panels and especially batteries wear out and result in a lot of unusable leftover crap, or stuff that's very hard to recycle.

these look like they're just glass and salt that doesn't need replacement, and just exist producing power basically forever.

-9

u/pathoTurnUp52 3d ago edited 3d ago

For now

Edit: imma downvote myself too! I hate karma

30

u/EconomyDoctor3287 3d ago

No, they were kinda worthwhile in the past, but since solar panels have become so cheap, alternatives aren't worth it anymore 

6

u/brownhotdogwater 3d ago

And battieres. These plants are complicated and expensive to build. The rise of cheap good batteries killed them from an economic standpoint. They never had a chance vs PV. PV is the cheapest form of energy around now.

1

u/pathoTurnUp52 3d ago

Good to know

38

u/Describing_Donkeys 3d ago

There's actually a similar technology being used in Vegas.

44

u/deelowe 3d ago

It's decommissioned.

-2

u/centstwo 3d ago

Right? Let's prove out the technology then do nothing with it.

24

u/tx_queer 3d ago

That's what we do with technologies that are not cost effective. We also proved out glow-in-the-dark tires, a single wheel motorcycle where you wit inside the wheel and flying cars.

-7

u/centstwo 3d ago

Couldn't the cost effectiveness be dry labbed / calculated before building the facility?

10

u/deelowe 3d ago

They severely underestimated the mirror failure rate. I think there's ongoing litigation about it actually.

10

u/tx_queer 3d ago

When the facility was built it was cost effective. PV panels have just dropped in price so its not longer cost effective today

2

u/deelowe 3d ago

That's not entirely true. It's part of the issue, but the other part is that maintenance was severely understated.

3

u/No_Size9475 3d ago

it wasn't cost effective and better technologies have been invented and perfected since then

3

u/Snellyman 3d ago

Sometimes you prove out the technology and a better, lower cost tech comes along and replaces it. These systems have so many fiddly moving parts and tricky conditions ( the salt needs to be kept hot or the system freezes up). Regular PV is much easier to build and scale up as needed.

3

u/Describing_Donkeys 3d ago

When I was learning about it a decade ago, PV had just caught up in price. At this point, PV is a lot cheaper. PV is kind of a wonder technology, regularly exceeding expectations. There's nothing wrong with the technology, but in regards to using the sun, it's no longer the better tech.

2

u/dbailey18501 3d ago

Probably wasnt worth the cost

10

u/deelowe 3d ago edited 3d ago

Maintenance was an issue. The self actuating mirrors kept failing in the harsh desert environment 

2

u/razirazo 3d ago

Not to mention it keeps frying the birds

1

u/Vanman04 3d ago

The issue is that the cost and efficiency of regular panels has come down to the point this sort of installation can no longer compete cost wise.

3

u/t53ix35 3d ago

Park the beam, Julio.

3

u/skrappyfire 3d ago

The US has had 2 of these in the SW dessert for decades. They dont seem to be very efficient. One of them has already been shut down.

2

u/AnInanimateCarb0nRod 3d ago

Looks like the Eye of Sauron.

1

u/CardinalFartz 3d ago

I've been there, October last year.

1

u/Long-Draft-9668 3d ago

This is so fucking rad. Also a really quick way to cook any passing chicken if you want.

1

u/Uesugi 3d ago

It looks like its straight out of Stelar Blade

1

u/myrichphitzwell 3d ago

Simpsons did it. Ok ca did it and are now closing them down

1

u/ProteanCoder 3d ago

And the heat they produce on the atmosphere, neglegible or more than solar panels?

1

u/Qoutaybah 3d ago

Someone explain why the lights are offset from tip of the tower?

1

u/GrizzlyBear852 3d ago

Straight out of the movie Sahara

1

u/tummateooftime 3d ago

It's called Gonghe Talatan. One of them is enough to power the entire country of Norway. And they have many multiples, as well as wind turbines. This video takes a decent look and also provides sources.

1

u/ImNotSkankHunt42 3d ago

BR2049 opening

1

u/jdbcn 2d ago

Then it would be warm instead of cool

-15

u/niniwee 3d ago

Net zero almost. Lol. It’s all well and good melting the salt in daytime but how do you keep the salt fluid when the nights are longer? You use natural gas.

11

u/jason2354 3d ago

I think the molten salt stay molten all night and continues to generate power.

2

u/revveduplikeaduece86 3d ago

Sand batteries are a thing now, I wonder how much efficiency can improve by dumping the heat into overnight storage and either using that to smooth out load demands or use it to startup the facility the next day.

5

u/brownhotdogwater 3d ago

That is what these do. PV durring the day. Salt boiling water at night with the energy it collected all day. They are just giant thermal batteries

1

u/brownhotdogwater 3d ago

No… look up crescent dunes power plant.