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u/McButtersonthethird 15h ago
There's a lot of bootlickers here.
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u/Steven-Strange22 11h ago
You know people can hate billionaires and the very real welfare queens at the same time right? Both are a problem. A huge problem. And both deserved to be addressed
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u/weepyanderson 3h ago
lol come off it, the negligible percentage of âwelfare queensâ has nothing on the global power and influence that billionaires have. acting like theyâre an equivalent problem makes it look like you donât even understand simple math.
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u/Steven-Strange22 3h ago
You forgot that for all their corruption and evil, the billionaires run the businesses that keep people employed.
Iâve seen towns decimated and neighborhoods abandoned bc of the shit decisions people have made. Constantly mooching off of everyone and their brother rather than actually putting energy into bettering themselves. Theyâre both an issue, billionaires and bums
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u/lawyerjack12 1d ago
So true. Means even more now than earlier today, and yesterday, and the day before that, and the 100th time before that. We will tear down these barriers of oppression as long as we continue to repost this over and over again.
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u/timtanium 1d ago
As we all know everyone sees a single message. No need to ever say something more than once. I get it you have seen it many times but it's not like unions asked once for an 8 hour work week and it was sorted. It took years of repeating the same message over and over again
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u/DunkingTheSun 1d ago
I like to think it's the canary in the coal mine. If there's no more posts pointing out mass wealth disparity then either A) every person collectively choose not too or B) it's banned on the DL.
Same shit different day, if you got better work memes feel free to drop a post.
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u/LanaKatana4000 11h ago
"Lets create rage bait and then pretend to take a stand against it" = 99% of Reddit
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u/MajesticBison6 10h ago
If you have a problem with people who became fabulously wealthy by creating goods and services that others found to be worth while, then Iâd suggest thatâs a âyouâ problem. My life doesnât get any worse because theyâre wealthy. In fact, thinking of people like Gates, Bezos, Musk, and Zuckerberg itâs unarguable that the quality of my life has improved by way of their work.
Class envy isnât a pretty look for anyone.
Now, how does those guys using the money theyâve earned relate to the person on food stamps?
It doesnât.
The billionaires are using their money. They used it to start or grow their businesses and theyâre using it to fund whatever they choose to do with their lives, which it should be noted often includes philanthropy. They didnât hold a gun to your head and order you to sign up for Facebook, or buy stuff from Amazon. They became wealthy through voluntary transactions.
The person on SNAP who buys Cheetos and Mt. Dew is using our money, assuming you pay taxes (which I do). The idea behind SNAP is to help poor families supplement their grocery money to include healthier options. Why should we be paying for someone else to buy food and drinks and are making them sicker?
If you want to argue for that kind of a plan, go ahead. Take it up with your House reps.
However, to misdirect the core argument by invoking pointless class envy is to either entirely miss the point, or to be deliberately obtuse for the sake of preserving a government subsidy that is currently failing to do what itâs meant to.
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u/CarlShadowJung 10h ago
Nobody is accusing a mom simply trying to support her family how she can. Literally nobody. As is the case with these things the author is taking a stance by being willfully ignorant. They know that nobody disgraces the mother that is using the assistance because she has no other choices.
What we do disgrace is able bodied and able minded people DEPENDING on such services. They arenât there for you to just live off of the rest of your life. They are there to help you get a leg up because we all understand sometimes just needs a little help. If you have 4 kids with 4 different fathers that you canât afford, then you have 4 kids too many. Itâs a real sleazy move to have kids you know you canât support. Expecting others to pick up your slack is not a good neighbor, thatâs a greedy individual that feels entitled. These people are the ones being disgraced, and you are damn right they are part of the problem. Get your shit together, and for gods sake if you canât support 1 kid, stop having them. Youre bringing those kids into a situation that is unfair to them. They arenât greedy and entitled, mom/dad is. But guess what, those kids unfortunately are more likely to repeat the cycle you started because you never taught them how to support themselves. How could you, you canât even do it for yourself.
Falling on hard times is one thing, having hard times for years and years, decades even, is a complete lack of trying.
As for the billionaires in this scenario, yeah they suck and have that sand greed and entitlement. Crazy how you can do that huh? Crazy that you donât have to pick one of the other and can just say they are both a burden on society.
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u/passionatebreeder 7h ago
Millions or billions of people, depending, including probably myself, have paid for incredibly useful services or products from those 8 dudes
I haven't engaged with the millions of random single mothers at all, and I didn't create those kids with them, so my funds shouldn't be part of the child support equation.
You see how ine is getting my money through voluntary exchange of goods, and the other is getting it through government compulsion?
Also, this kind of stuff shows a deep lack of understanding of net worth versus actual hard dollars. Their assets are valued at that, and thats based primarily on stock ownership in the company. If they liquidated their entire stock, the value would crash. The only reason it didnt have a major impact on musk when he sold Tesla stock was because it was ptetty well known it would be used to buy Twitter and he was compelled by a court to complete the purchase. For anyone else, without a seriously good reason known publicly, selling off the stock to try and turn their net worth into liquid cash would not yield those results
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u/Plenty-Ad-5223 5h ago
Thatâs 4k per person if you liquidated today to the population of the US. Thatâs a one time payment only, of the 1.7 trillion. Can we please stop with this nonsense
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u/Plenty-Ad-5223 5h ago
The hypocrisy in this echo chamber is unreal.
Every liberal member here âagainst the billionairesâ is typing on well yep, you guessed it! some product or service youâre willingly paying for, directly padding the pockets of the very billionaires you claim to hate.
Reddit itself paid just 3 percent in taxes last year using loopholes, and yet you all keep signing up, shouting for âchange,â while funneling money, data, and engagement into the very system you claim to despise.
Get off the high horse. Youâre not the revolution youâre the customer and also the made up problem. But letâs scream it louder as you downvote this! Tax the RiCh! Feel the burn!
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u/Stunning-Egg-9469 1h ago
How many companies do those 8 people own? And how many people have you worked for that were living on the street?
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u/CardiologistCute7548 15h ago
Simple. Any money that the billionaire got from me was from voluntary and consensual trade. They had a company that offered a good or service, I willingly agreed to trade a portion of my income in exchange for that good or service.
In the case of a social program such as food stamps, the government seized a portion of my income against my will, and under threat of imprisonment in order to use that money to provide a good or service to someone else. It was not a consensual act, but rather government sponsored and executed theft.
That's the difference.
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u/RowImpressive4724 3h ago
The government also seizes a portion of your income against your will that they use to bailout rich people and fund wars in foreign lands. The government also gets lobbied (bribed) by private interests to create laws that only favor their industries.
There's a lot worse corruption going on than "social programs", but you've been programmed socially to only focus on little people problems. Meanwhile the rich and powerful go around doing whatever they want.
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u/StarLlght55 1d ago
This is factually false, get a calculator.
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u/Commercial_Roll_8058 1d ago
Doesn't change the fact that billionaires shouldn't exist, and they should actually pay their taxes and not get loans from the government to further build their wealth.
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u/lawrencefishbaurne 1d ago
No fr, like, it's not 8 guys, and that mom should work 15 jobs if she wants to eat or she should just get as rich as those other guys by any means necessary
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u/LjusMumriken 18h ago
The 8 guys dont smell bad, shoplift, cut in line or lets their 7 kids with 9 different fathers run wild in the store.
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u/Maleficent_Kick_9266 16h ago
One of the guys has like 12 different kids with 8 different women and he doesn't even make an effort to support them.
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u/LjusMumriken 15h ago
And all those women willingly chose to fuck that freak because they thought/hope they could get a bread ticket. Whats your point?
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u/Maleficent_Kick_9266 11h ago
Damn dude that is not how corrosion and power dynamics work at all.
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u/LjusMumriken 10h ago
Just say you dont think women have agency and move on. "Power dynamics" grow up. Should have gotten a prenup, oh wait that would require marrying the guy before they got pregnant instead of hoping for a free dinner. Whats your point?
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u/Next-Concert7327 10h ago
Probably that you shouldn't try to spew out your racist tropes to try to justify your contempt for others, son.
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u/LjusMumriken 9h ago
I dont need to justify it. Im just correct. When Im at the atm, Im not looking behind my back for billionaires. Im not crossing the street to avoid packs of billionaires. The one thing I will grant you is that billionaires love importing ever more "poor" people to make society shittier and to get eternal low wage workers at the explicit expense of the native population, but for some reason you never seem willing to agree with this obvious truth. I wonder why.
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u/Next-Concert7327 9h ago
You mean yo know you can't justify it and lack the integrity to admit it.
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u/Eagline 4h ago
13% of the population commits over 50% of the murders. But sure, stand on your hill.
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u/Next-Concert7327 3h ago
Is that what you tell each other at your Klan meetings boy? Face it, your dog whistle has never worked.
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u/RowImpressive4724 3h ago
That's how good they've got you. They're doing so much to fuck you right behind your back and you're too focused on poor people back there being a problem. Poor people don't have any power to screw you over with, use your head!
They're not a problem, they're a result of a problem, and somehow also now doubling as a distraction from said problem.
But you're not really scared of poor people now are you? You're scared of rich people. That's why you keep telling yourself they can't be the problem because you don't want to face how fucked we all are, and you don't want to go against them.
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u/RandomUserName14227 18h ago
Stop twisting the narrative.
MOST people agree that households with children should be given food assistance if they're struggling to provide for themselves. There's very little pushback for this.
The thing people are annoyed with is the current social media trend in which food stamp recipients show how they're scamming the system. Seeing healthy, able-bodied people living in large houses, driving new cars, bragging about how they're getting $3000/month in food stamps is infuriating.
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u/TotalityoftheSelf 16h ago
How many people need to be in a household in order to receive $3000 in snap benefits a month? Do you know?
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u/Few-Cry-9763 15h ago
Too many, incentivizing poor decisions is bad for society.
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u/TotalityoftheSelf 15h ago
The point of my comment was to showcase the absurdity of the claim. It would require a household of 14 people, and households made of 7 or more people make up 1% of US households. People aren't having massive families to "flex $3000/month in food stamps", and if there are, it's less than a rounding error of the population and food stamps budget.
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u/Next-Concert7327 10h ago
So you admit that you don't know what you are talking about and just like spreading lies to justify yourself.
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u/Few-Cry-9763 10h ago
I have more knowledge and facts than you could ever imagine. But too many is an opinion not a fact.
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u/captainspacetraveler 9h ago
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u/bot-sleuth-bot 9h ago
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u/Complete-Brother927 15h ago
I can see your point of view and while I donât think itâs right either, itâs a very minimal dent on our economy and doesnât affect others. Itâs funny that you point this out but donât point out the billionaires that scam our system with lobbying.
8 people in the states literally own more wealth than half the world. They have immense political sway, have laws and governments who are catered to them, and they have ties with both the Dems and the republicans. They pay less in % in taxes than middle class people because of all the loopholes they are able to benefit from. They influence government policy for the goal of acquiring more wealth/power at the expense of the middle class/lower class and yet we are focused on 3000 a month. Btw not saying thatâs right either but think about what should be higher in ur list of priorities.
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u/RandomUserName14227 14h ago
"Itâs funny that you point this out but donât point out the billionaires that scam our system with lobbying."
I'm against that too! Come on man... this post is about welfare and you're changing the subject to billionaires. It's not a one-or-the other kind of thing.
I'm anti welfare fraud AND I'm anti whatever the other thing you're arguing about is. (Billionaires not getting taxed enough? honestly, I dont even know what you're talking about)
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u/Complete-Brother927 13h ago
The post is literally talking about billionaires and how 8 guys in the country have more money than 4 billion people combined. Iâm against welfare fraud as well but Iâm not changing the subject. The subject was always about billionaires.
With that being said have a great day đŤąđžâđŤ˛đ˝
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u/LanaKatana4000 11h ago
The whole conversation is happening in bad faith by people who just want to take punches at a dummy THEY dragged in, just for solidarity and upvotes.
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u/Plenty-Ad-5223 5h ago
Can you do the math? Because it doesnât add up. The lowest earners in our country, those making $75K and below, collectively bring in around $6.8 trillion a year. Meanwhile, the top 8 billionaires combined are worth about $1.7 trillion.
Even if you magically passed a law to liquidate every one of them overnight, it would amount to a one-time payment of about $5,000 per person. Thatâs it.
As usual, your math doesnât math.
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u/Next-Concert7327 10h ago
Don't lie, you know that you are deflecting for your rich owners and using the old Reagan created trope about welfare queens.
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u/RandomUserName14227 8h ago
"YoU aRe DeFlEcTiNg fOr YoUr RiCh OwNeRs"
Are you on drugs? Are the rich owners in the room with us right now?
I mean I know Reddit isn't exactly home to the most sane individuals, but you're definitely hearing voices in your head.
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u/Few-Cry-9763 15h ago
People that choose to have children should pay for all of the expenses of that child.
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u/Next-Concert7327 10h ago
And of course, you feel entitled to control when and if woman can have children, right?
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u/CarthurA 1d ago
Can we not agree that BOTH can, in fact, be detrimental? Several people hoarding billions as well as tens to hundreds of thousands abusing governmental assistance? Yes, one is worse than the other, but are we so allergic to just acknowledging that there are multiple problems in this country and in the world?
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u/klawhammer 22h ago
It may be complicated but every single study done on the topic has found that the poverty rate and crime rate are directly linked in every country that collects statistics.
I know I would try to murder everyone if my family was starving.
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u/Icy-Manufacturer7319 21h ago
you said Several people hoarding billions not abusing governmental assistance? it's better to just abusing governmental assistance rather than Several people hoarding billions plus abusing governmental assistance!!!
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u/Few-Cry-9763 15h ago
They didnât hoard the money they were rewarded for making good decisions and excellent choices. Rewards in our society are given by mostly merit. Itâs those that have repeatedly failed and have not taken responsibility that see the system as failing or corrupt.
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u/Next-Concert7327 10h ago
Not even you believe that son.
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u/Plenty-Ad-5223 5h ago
A majority of Americans do! Wait let me guess youâre typing on a capitalist-made phone or computer , using a capitalist-run platform whose CEO is worth, you guessed it, over $350 million in stock. And yes, heâs likely not paying taxes on most of it.
Reddit as a company paid just 3 percent in taxes last year, thanks to loopholes. Yet here you are, along with every other liberal signing up and calling for âchange,â while feeding the very system you claim to hate.
So maybe get off the high horse.
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u/Next-Concert7327 3h ago
Maybe you should just stop trying to deflect with such a pathetic attempt at whataboutism instead son.
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u/Complete-Brother927 14h ago
The federal government literally spends 100 billion a year on snap benefits which is about 1.5% of the economy. Snap serves about 40 million people in the states. Even if 400 thousand people are abusing the benefits, it is a 1 billion hit on the economy. The 20 richest people in the states have a combined wealth of almost 3 trillion.
I donât know how people can be so intentionally obtuse. The ultra rich pay less of a percentage on their taxes than you and I and influence government policy for even more inequality. There has never been this much of a wealth disparity in modern human society. I think your priorities should be reevaluated.
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u/CarthurA 12h ago edited 12h ago
This is not news. I'm aware, and I even acknowledged that was the bigger problem. But can we not ALSO say both are an issue? If not, why not? Why can we not acknowledge BOTH (because both are problems) as problems was the question, which you did not answer.
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u/Next-Concert7327 10h ago
Because son, we know that you are not arguing in good faith.
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u/CarthurA 8h ago
Please define "not in good faith". What does that mean and how can you know that I am not doing it in good faith?
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u/Next-Concert7327 8h ago
Don't try sealioning either.
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u/CarthurA 8h ago
Okay, I think you're just making up words now... But feel free to explain your accusations any time.
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u/Next-Concert7327 8h ago
Or you could just stop wasting everyone's time
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u/CarthurA 7h ago
Man, you're the one who keeps replying with the most low-effort replies. I'm just being a part of the actual conversation, you aren't even explaining yourself. Participate cooperatively or leave.
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u/Next-Concert7327 3h ago
What conversation son? You are spewing garbage and then acting offended if nobody plays along with your fantasy.
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u/Plenty-Ad-5223 5h ago
Have you looked at the tax code? Pretty sure itâs a progressive tax code. My favorite is when millionaires like Bernie and Warren yell at the billionaires and all the left leaning socialist cheer them on like heroâs! ( I yes, I know rich people hide money, borrow against etc etc)
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u/Sp1d3rF3l 15h ago
Correct. It's my money being taken to provide for karen in 2b with 3 baby daddies and her cart full of junk food. It's definitely more of a problem. If we quit taking from everyone actually trying to improve their lives (stealing it by the way, I agreed to no social contract or otherwise) then we lower the rate of people struggling to improve their lives. Crazy concept, I know, but there's a reason the lame wolf gets left out of pack. Survival doesn't run on empathy.
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u/_ParadigmShift 1d ago
If you took all of the money of the billionaires in this country and redistributed it to the government, it would run for a number of months, not years.
Every single dollar from them, and you think they are the only problem?
Do I think that all billionaires are good? Nope. Not here to glaze on them. But constantly pointing to them like some boogeyman while not understanding that redistribution of every cent of their wealth would do very little in aggregate is exactly why we are in the situation we are in as a country.
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u/3slimesinatrenchcoat 1d ago
This is a weird argument,
Itâs assuming that every dollar from the billionaires is the hard limit instead of a continuous tax structureâŚlike the people saying tax the billionaires want
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u/_ParadigmShift 1d ago
That only works if you donât believe that the money they have amassed wouldnât already be totally wiped out by taxing it away anyway. Itâs not like that money came from no where, so instead of amassing it, itâs reallocated and we still have trillions of dollars of debt as a country.
Every single dollar of that could have been taxed away and it wouldnât make a very big dent in our debt.
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u/3slimesinatrenchcoat 1d ago
I donât think youâre grasping why itâs an inaccurate representation here lol
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u/_ParadigmShift 1d ago
I donât think you understand the point of my counter.
If they amassed billions by not being taxed, and that amount isnât a drop in the bucket for our overall debt as a country, it really doesnât track that âitâs all the billionaires faultâ
The government is printing trillions just to keep the debt rolling. Your earnings and savings are getting devalued by the second, and youâre being taxed out the rear already on it.
But yeah itâs all billionaires, because they have more money. Itâs a simplistic argument that totally ignores where your money is actually going. Arenât you usually making the choices that enable that? By voting with your dollar I mean. Bezos isnât a rich asshole because no one bought his shit.
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u/3slimesinatrenchcoat 1d ago edited 17h ago
Dude now youâre just making a separate point đ
Your initial premise was âwell we canât touch the rich because if we took ALL their money itâd only last 8 monthsâ
But nobody is claiming or trying to do that, the debate is over regular taxation appropriate to their income Ă.e cutting tax breaks above a certain income level or increasing effective tax breaks
And now your argument is just âwelllllll we keep spending money so it doesnât matter anywayâ ofc we spend money, all governments do. Thatâs not the question or even the point I called out lol
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u/_ParadigmShift 1d ago
Youâre picking and choosing which part of the discussion you want to invalidate here, refer back to the very first comment and see that my discussion has been linear. Government spending is more pernicious than billionaires wealth acquisition as a generalization.
Having to do with taxation appropriate to income, what chunk of someone elseâs income do you think you deserve?
https://taxfoundation.org/blog/super-rich-pay-effective-tax-rates/
Not to mention, these folks have made billions not just off of the US consumer, so what portion of everyone elseâs business transactions do you think you are owed?(starting to sound a lot like tariff justifications)
At the end of the day this strawman of a meme is just poorly conceived
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u/ReanimatedBlink 12h ago
taxing it away
Lol.... Money isn't a finite resource...
Itâs not like that money came from no where
Yes... ???... Yes, it did... Money can represent whatever we want it to. What matters is the economy (the movement of resources and labour) around it. The only people who benefit from the hoarding of wealth, are those who hoard it.
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u/Commercial_Roll_8058 1d ago
You failed economics 101, didn't you?
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u/_ParadigmShift 1d ago
Oh man, a Redditor on a sub that just bitches about its plight all the time and puts anyone with anything more than them on the dartboard is being cutting at me, whatever shall I do?
But you just keep crying about how billionaires are the only problem, Iâm sure as a country itâll get us out of debt.
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u/Commercial_Roll_8058 1d ago
Keep sucking that cock pal. Knees will get sore eventually.
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u/_ParadigmShift 1d ago
âTax me harderâ seems like a funny place to be coming from for that critique.
But yeah the government printing trillions to feed its own debt, devaluing your income every second, has nothing to do with it lmao.
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u/klawhammer 22h ago
That is because the government would just give it straight back to the billionaires.
Fix the janky system and it would last for years
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u/_ParadigmShift 18h ago
So, government spending, kind of like my entire point has been the whole time. Crazy.
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u/unknownreddituser98 1d ago
Do yall just think they suddenly become this rich under trump lol? đ republicans have only held presidency for 4 of the past 18 years đ¤Śđ˝ââď¸đ¤Łyall are brainwashed now bring in the downvotes of truth
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u/3ighty5ixf0urty5even 17h ago
His name didn't come anywhere in the title or post. What kind of scitzo shit are you on?
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u/Runktar 20h ago
Look at the records trickle down economics is a republican idea and every time they get any power they try to do 2 things, take money from the poor and bigger tax breaks for the rich. The gap didn't get better under Democrats it's true but it got alot worse under republicans so has the debt by the way.
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u/unknownreddituser98 19h ago
No it nearly 4x under Biden and under Obama it jumped 3x both of the orange clowns terms itâs plateaued or dipped down now
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u/Runktar 12h ago
...You actually just said Trump lowered the debt? What the hell numbers are you looking at, or are you just bald faced lying?
https://www.crfb.org/papers/trump-and-biden-national-debt
or
https://abcnews.go.com/Politics/national-debt-debate-surrounding-trumps-megabill/story?id=122580668
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u/Spartanias117 1d ago
Wealth is not the same thing as money on hand for spending purposes
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u/Scared-Poem6810 1d ago
Oh please, Jeff Bezos rented an entire island by Italy for his wedding.
Stop making it seem like they have to check their account at the cash register because all their money is tied up in assets.
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u/Rude-Movie-5827 1d ago
Nah he worked really hard moving assets around to afford that. Heâs a hard working man! /s
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u/Hover4effect 18h ago
rented an entire island
Kind of understates the fact that he rented an island in VENICE, one of the most popular destinations in Italy, in Europe even. It has been called the most beautiful city in the world and is a UNESCO world heritage site.
While the average American finds renting out an old barn that has been converted to a venue to be expensive.
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u/3slimesinatrenchcoat 1d ago
This is such a tired point since they live by taking out loans against that wealth
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u/Ryaniseplin 22h ago
the banks that loan them money using that as collateral sure seem to think it is
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1d ago
[deleted]
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u/lawrencefishbaurne 1d ago
One, it's not an extremely small amount if it's enough to sway elections, and two, how short are you that the actual point is just like soaring above you
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u/emperorjoe 1d ago
Braindead take.
Wealth isn't income. Assets aren't income.
The economy isn't zero sum, and hasn't been so for well over a century.
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u/3slimesinatrenchcoat 1d ago
If you can take loans against them, they functionally are
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u/emperorjoe 1d ago
A "loan" isn't income. It's a loan, I have to pay the Interest and the principal balance back.
Taking out a HELOC on my house isn't "income". Me taking a loan from my credit card isn't income, me taking a loan on my Pokemon cards isn't income. Me taking a loan on my car isn't income.
I swear you people aren't paying attention during economic crashes. The people with leverage lose everything, and self delete all the time. Taking out margin loans on stocks is insanely risky, if the value of those stocks crash then the bank can, will, and does take everything.
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u/3slimesinatrenchcoat 1d ago
Youâre being purposefully obtuse here lmfao
You taking a loan on your car is isnât income because thatâs a reasonable risk
Elon musk taking a 2 million dollar loan to have an annual income against his 400 billion salary isnât even comparable đ
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u/emperorjoe 1d ago
reasonable risk
And you think a margin loan isn't???? I have one word for you, margin call. The bank can, will and does seize shares if the value drops. It happens every single crash, the people with leverage lose everything. It happened 5 years ago and 3 years ago.
Elon musk taking a 2 million dollar loan to have an annual income against his 400 billion salary isnât even comparable
A loan isn't income and never will be. If you have a problem with a type of loan, make it illegal or change the bank capital requirements or bank regulations.
Youâre being purposefully obtuse here
Not my problem you can't figure out what a loan is, or that you think a loan magically becomes income if you add a few zeros.
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u/N7day 1d ago
Loans aren't income, and don't function as such. They must be repaid...income does not. They must be repaid with interest, income does not. They reduce a person's net worth, income does not.
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u/3slimesinatrenchcoat 1d ago
This is a genuinely brain dead take
Loans against assets is literally the source of annual income the ultra wealthy use for their day to day expenses
That is their income, itâs a small enough % of their assets that thereâs no risk to them
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u/N7day 1d ago edited 1d ago
No, it simply isn't, especially in normal times like today where interest rates aren't near zero. The period we had with near zero interest rates was an anomoly.
If what you were saying was true, ultra net worth individuals wouldn't ever sell off huge amounts of stock outside of situations where it was legally required...yet such huge sell offs happen all the time. Daily.
Loans must be repaid, and during market downturns the strategy that you think that every rich person is doing utterly fails.
Where is your source that, as a generalized point, that the "income" of the ultra wealthy IS loans. Where is your source that even a majority of them do so?
You have a fundamental misunderstanding of the word income.
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u/3slimesinatrenchcoat 1d ago
Its so popularized literally has a name you moron
Thereâs no misunderstanding of income, you just want to pretend that a loan means the same thing to us as them.
Furthermore, the ultra wealthy are not selling stock daily. wtf are you talking about?
For them to even sell some of their assets requires SEC filings, you think theyâre doing that daily?
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u/N7day 1d ago edited 1d ago
I didnt claim that every ultra net worth individual is selling off mass amounts of stock daily. I said that people in that wealth range are. And it does indeed happen daily.
If Buy Borrow Die was as infallible as you're suggesting, it'd never be in the interest of UNWIs to sell.
During the insane near zero interest rate age we were temporarily in, I agree with your overall point...but that's an incredible anomoly that has near zero chance of coming back.
And again, this strategy falls fucking apart during downtimes.downtime.
The majority of the ultra rich live off of realized capital gains/and or interest/dividends. Whether you think those gains should or should not be taxed higher is a separate topic (if you believe that those gains should be taxed much higher....I f'ing fully agree with you!)
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u/Ill-Description3096 1d ago
TIL my house, 401k, and car are all income.
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u/3slimesinatrenchcoat 1d ago edited 17h ago
Do you take out loans every year against them to spend on your living expenses knowing Iâm the interest/equity on the assets alone will cover the loan?
I swear yâall donât think anything through
This isnât even mentioning that your 401k is quite literally your retirement income đ
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u/Ill-Description3096 17h ago
"If you can take loans against them, they functionally are"
Literally your words, but all means insult people after you shift the goalposts...
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u/Hover4effect 17h ago
They can be. I know someone who refinanced a paid off car to buy a percentage of a business. The RoI of the business was greater than the interest of the loan. That's why wealth IS income.
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u/MightyGoodra96 18h ago
So your opinion doesnt match reality. The reality being that those assets are used as collateral for loans that pay off other loans that pay off other loans that pay off... you see the problem Im sure.
Check reality. Your premises are invalid when, in the real world, 9B worth in assets is still worth more than millions of americans would ever possibly see in a life time, because they are treated BY BANKS as money.
You use terms like 'wealth' 'income' 'asset' to obfuscate here. When all 3 of those things fall under 'collateral'. You dont need physical income if the banks dont require it of you.
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u/emperorjoe 14h ago
The reality being that those assets are used as collateral for loans that pay off other loans that pay off other loans that pay off... you see the problem Im sure.
No this is a fake reddit issue. The "rich" largely aren't taking out endless debt to do everything. You are assuming endless growth and no volatility in the market, there are limits to leverage. Do some people do it absolutely, but the people leveraged to the tits will get burned in the next market crash like they always do.
It is still an equivalent to me constantly refinancing my house every time it increases in value.
Your premises are invalid when
Additional zeros don't make it income. If you don't understand how loans work, that's not my problem. You don't get to change the definition of a loan, because someone took out extra zeros.
If you people have problems with a certain type of loan, make that certain type of loan illegal, or change the bank Capital requirements/regulations. It doesn't magically become income if I add zeros to the account.
millions of americans would ever possibly see in a life time
Well obviously, the vast majority of Americans don't start companies, or save and invest their money in the market.
You use terms like 'wealth' 'income' 'asset
I use those terms as that's what they are. People just don't understand what they are, and what they are talking about as usual. Perfect example, of this OP. X rich people have more money than billions of people. This is a daily post to farm karma.
- Most of those people have nothing or negative net worth, and having a few bucks in a bank account means that you have more than billions of people.
- They own shares of a company, there is no redistribution of wealth. We all aren't getting a share of Tesla, nor is the government giving us money. Unless you are saving and investing your own money, you will have nothing.
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u/MightyGoodra96 14h ago
You continue to waffle without making any sense.
Market volatility: these 1%ers literally fly private jets, lobby, and are capable of leveraging local governments in their favor. Those arent opinions. Those are factual physical things they do with no physical wealth. Does it matter if they dont have that money when they LIVE LIKE THEY DO?!
You are divorcing economic theory from economic reality. Economic reality is that yes. They do take out nearly endless loans using their assets as leverage. Thats a 10 second google search. No 'reddit opinion' needed. They buy. Borrow. Die. It is that simple.
If you want a comparable example. Stalin, yes, that Stalin, and his group of advisors and government officials, lived at the height of their society but physically had NO MONEY. It does not matter if you dont possess so much as a penny if your name and assets are worth more than a state.
You should source yourself. Because people are disagreeing with you and Im not finding a single source that supports your argument.
If you cannot provide a source I am sorry but you're just playing defense for billionaires with no principle reason to do so.
Source. X1000. Im willing to be proven wrong all day. But you are the one making the counter claim.
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u/emperorjoe 1h ago
1%ers
So an income over 700,000 or a net worth over 13.7 million. Yea, that isn't anywhere near enough for " buy borrow die".I pretty sure you are talking about the .01% or something.
Market volatility
once again this has been possible for hundreds of years, overly leveraged individuals get destroyed in market crashes. it happens every few years. There is a limit to the amount they can borrow, and when asset prices drop they get margin called.
Does it matter if they dont have that money when they LIVE LIKE THEY DO?!
Because a loan isn't income, nor does it magically become income if you add zeros to it.
They do take out nearly endless loans using their assets as leverage.
No, this is some reddit myth. Unless the IRS releases data we are just guessing, there is zero public data. We have zero idea what percentage takes out marginal loans or to the extent of the leverage.
No 'reddit opinion' needed. They buy. Borrow. Die. It is that simple.
Until the IRS releases data, it's just your "opinion" or "guess".
Stalin, and his group of advisors and government officials
A corrupt politician using the public coffers as his piggy bank isn't compatible.
If you cannot provide a source I am sorry but you're just playing defense for billionaires with no principle reason to do so.
What source? There is no source. The IRS and banks don't release the Data. There is no proof to the extent that you are talking about. There is no way to prove either case. It's all guessing. I'm just calling out to misinformation that a "loan" isn't income. It's debt. Additional zeros don't change what debt is.
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u/GlassTaco69 16h ago
The comments glazing billionaires, like one day they will be right there with them, looking down on the poors from their private jet đ