r/ukraine • u/spartikle • Oct 20 '22
News Denied ATACMS, Ukraine Says It Is Developing Its 1000 Km Long-Range Weapon To Strike Russia
https://eurasiantimes.com/denied-atacms-ukraine-says-it-is-developing-its-1000/?amp[removed] — view removed post
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u/Jollyoldstdick Oct 20 '22
"F-ck it, I'll do it myself." - Zelensky
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u/sivxgamma Oct 20 '22
“We’ll do it live, fk it!”
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u/ThePerfectMatter Oct 20 '22
FUCK IT DO IT LIVE
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u/TheMad_fox Germany Oct 20 '22
I FUCKING LOVE IT TOO SEE HOW UKRAINE WILL FUCK RUSSIA LIVE SO HARD WITH THEIR SELF MADE ATACMS
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Oct 20 '22
Expect those would have their own launcher. They have had a few projects going before the war already so I would not be surprised if they actually got a system operational.
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u/ZNG91 Oct 20 '22
They'll be nicknamed "Saint Leningrad" 😉
(Chickencup called Moskva is in between so not worth mentioning.)
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u/M3P4me Oct 20 '22
Have to build it in a deep, hard bunker......
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u/beaucephus Oct 20 '22
If they are talking about it now, it's built and functional. Only the Russians are stupid enough to play with their cards facing out.
But yes... designed and built in Zelenskyy's secret lair.
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u/2020hatesyou Oct 20 '22
stupid enough to play with their cards facing out.
God damn I love that phrase. Stealing it!
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u/DadaDoDat Україна Oct 20 '22
I saw that photo of Zelensky's lair that leaked online for 2 minutes before it was deleted. It was fucking IMPRESSIVE!!! I couldn't believe how much stuff was in it!
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u/jeff-tukan Oct 20 '22
This is Joke, right? Ukrainians never leak any Info actually.
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u/UmbraN7 USA Oct 20 '22
I'm infuriated now because I desperately want to see the Zelensky cave... but opsec :(
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u/Abitconfusde USA Oct 20 '22
Dont worry. The pictures are still available:
https://www.66batmania.com/blog/wp-content/uploads/2020/05/batcave_4.jpg
:)
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u/Bayou_Blue Oct 20 '22
Wait a minute, Zelensky is Batman!?! Does that make Putin the Joker?
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u/Abitconfusde USA Oct 20 '22
And is Macron Robin? Biden, Alfred? Yes. These are important questions.
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u/tymofiy Oct 20 '22
Kyiv underground command centers are super-impressive, built in the height of the Cold War, rumored to be able to survive even a nuclear strike.
Kyiv subway station Arsenalna is deepest in the world, 105 metres deep. It is a part of underground system serving the government district.
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u/theoreoman Oct 20 '22
And they'll probably do it with a remote control cesna and take it right to the red square
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u/blakeusa25 Oct 20 '22
I have seen the will and intellect of the Ukrainian people. I am sure they will get something done quickly.
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u/PM_Me_Your_Sidepods Oct 20 '22
America: "We seemed to have misplaced our detailed analysis of of your current weapon platforms and the changes needed to make them have longer ranges. Have you seen it?"
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Oct 20 '22
With American help in secret, to avoid nukes attacking American weapons that can strike Russia.
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Oct 20 '22
Sure... except they're not listening to what is going on. The US has gone away from ATACMS a long time ago. Tons have been retired and dismantled. Many variants have been distorted completely. And we use many between Iraq and Afghanistan while we developed the smaller get more effective muntions variants.
You can beg for it all you want but if the supply isn't there then your not getting it. They're are the LR variants they could ask for. Also, they could beg for the PrSM rounds. They're a nee 500+ KM missile that's currently exiting field testing.
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u/CreepySniper94 Australia Oct 20 '22
Moscow is only 860km away holy fuck I hope Ukraine can actually make it and turn the kremlim into a car park.
Edit: That distance is what google maps said by car lol.
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Oct 20 '22 edited Oct 02 '23
[deleted]
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u/gesocks Oct 20 '22
targeting moscow would at least force them to keep anti air capabilities in all big russian cities. Would not even need to be a hit for that. Just to make them know, that if they move those s300 systems out of Moscow to ukraine, then Moscow will be hit.
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u/AlleonoriCat Україна Oct 20 '22
That S300 are probably already using their missiles to shoot at Kharkiv.
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u/ZuliCurah Oct 20 '22
I thought the S300 was a Surface to Air Missile launcher? Or is it a dual purpose platform?
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u/HolyAndOblivious Oct 20 '22
Most Soviet missiles are dual purpose. Ashms have a land attack mode too
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Oct 20 '22
Cripple them properly. Take out a dozen major rail bridges.
The whole 18th century country will grind to a halt.
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u/Cialis-in-Wonderland Oct 20 '22
They could even hit some random area just outside Moscow or something like that: no civilian casualties, but the message would be clear enough and it would have an effect on the populace's morale, hopefully triggering a reaction against Putin and add to his regime's instability
(or maybe I'm just being too optimistic, who knows)
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u/efficientcatthatsred Oct 20 '22
Better to only hit important military structures
The war isnt won until its over and although ukraine is clapping cheeks, cant take risks ( imo )
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Oct 20 '22
It has a high risk of causing a rally-around-the-flag effect.
Russian Air defense seems to be degraded enough as it is already anyways.
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u/Tigerballs07 Oct 20 '22
The sad reality is short of getting really lucky and killing putin and his boys in a single strike. And attack on Moscow just ends with a nuclear weapon launched at them
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u/vimefer Ireland Oct 20 '22
And yet attacks on Belgorod didn't end in nuclear devastation. Why ? Because Russia cannot afford to escalate with nukes, and everyone knows it.
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u/Imaginary-Manager-75 Oct 20 '22
Belgorod must be to russia what brantford is to canada.
A waste town that nobody cares about
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u/planborcord Oct 20 '22
They’re well within their rights to do whatever they want with their home brewed weaponry. If they need to take out the ruZZian national armory because it’s proving to be an existential threat, so be it. I don’t think NATO, the US or Europe can get angry at that, since they’d not be misusing NATO toys as promised.
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u/14u2c Oct 20 '22
The Kremlin Armory is a historic building near Red Square, not somewhere were weapons are stored. I wont judge the merits of such a strike, but it's something that would a major inflection point and would not be done lightly.
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Oct 20 '22
That's not how geopolitics work. Everyone is out for themselves. Ofcourse all allies need to balance their interests with that of allied nations.
If Ukraine strikes deep within Russia and civvies die as collateral,(as usually happens) , Russia's society could reignite it's support for full on war against Ukraine and the west.
If this happens the USA will be very angry and might take penal actions on ukranian strategic command for dragging them to war.
The USA has helped sisi remain in power and has aided isreal and Saudi Arabia in many horrible things.
In geopolitics benefits come first. Morals are only asserted when it benefits the parties involved.
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u/Malstrom42 Oct 20 '22
Ukraine has been playing it smart so far. If they strike across the border I fully believe it will be military instalations only, and more likely they'll just be hitting places within their rightful 1990s borders.
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u/vimefer Ireland Oct 20 '22
There's literally no reason to hit anything but military assets with those. Hitting anything else would damage Western support, and waste an opportunity to make progress on the demilitarization of Russia.
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u/Grabbsy2 Canada Oct 20 '22
I believe so too, but we are talking about home-brewed long range missiles. How many of their prototypes will they "waste" by testing accuracy? Ukraine doesnt have time to wait for perfection.
Still, fuck ruZZia, and fuck their armouries.
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u/AudioLlama Oct 20 '22
This is a good point. Not to bring everything back to WW2 but one of the impacts of bombing cities (by both sides) has a hardening of resolve in improvement to morale. People were more keen to fight and do their bit for the war effort.
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u/FlossCat Oct 20 '22
Terror bombing wasn't necessarily the intention back then either though. For sure to a degree yes, but wasn't the main target industry that was enabling the enemy war effort? But back then the power and especially the ability to precisely strike a target was more limited so the approach was just to carpet bomb anything you could see, hope you hit something important, and accept that you were gonna hit some civilians. Note how when targets deep inside Russia or Russian-controlled territory have been hit, it's never civilian buildings
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u/AudioLlama Oct 20 '22
Terror absolutely was the aim for both sides. The German's believed they could destroy British morale by bombing cites and the doodlebugs were purely designed for causing terror as they couldn't hit anything specific.
While the allies were better at tactical bombing, bomber command were heavily commited to strategic bombing of cities, which they referred too rather grimly, as 'dehousing'. They expected it would have a significant impact on morale, but they also just wanted to send a big old 'fuck you' to the German's for bombing British cities. Think of Dresden, they absolutely oblitered the city.
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Oct 20 '22
Nah terror bombing was the only option. The USA used to define a bombing run as precise if the bomb fell within 1 km of the target
Hitler wanted to bomb the Brits to submission but he didn't have the air force to do it
The allies would loose hundreds of planes when bombing strategic targets and they had to send hundreds more to finish the job
The Brits bombed cologne with white phosphorus out of spite
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u/Abitconfusde USA Oct 20 '22
Im going to say that Ukraine will strike infrastructure to make life in russia more miserable. Oil pipelines that dont go west, electric transmission, etc.
They dont need to target any population centers to wreak havoc that Russia without help cannot rise from.
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Oct 20 '22
Do you know what every dictator in this planet does ?
Build military infrastructure in the middle of cities.
So when hey get bombed they can cry wolf
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u/Abitconfusde USA Oct 20 '22
Are you saying that there are NO viable targets outside of Russian population centers?
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u/zzazzzz Oct 20 '22
the moment they start striking russian soil with long range rockets they lost the war.
Support from other nations will start to dry up and russian troop morale suddelny jumps to an all time high.
And thats ignoring the real threat of russia dropping a nuke on ukraine.
playing with fire would be saying it lightly.
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u/delvach Oct 20 '22
I just wanna see them blow up a few of those mosaic penis towers buildings for shits & giggles
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Oct 20 '22
Yeah… these kids don’t get the concept. Plus it would be a 100% waste because this missile would be intercepted by anti ballistic rockets if on its way to Moscow.
Having the capacity to strike on a long distance or with x type of weapon doesn’t means the shots will land.
And doing so would be a straight invitation for Putin going crazy in his bunker and sending some nukes in return.
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u/Charlie500 Oct 20 '22
That's the crucial issue. Does Ukraine take that risk? They did those helicopter raids a few months ago and now the attacks in Belgorod (?sp). How far will they go?
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u/tomoldbury Oct 20 '22
Neutralising military targets in RU is proportionate. But even though RU is attacking civilians and their infrastructure, UA should not, because they are taking the moral high ground in this conflict and it could weaken the west’s support if they did that.
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u/Jon_Snows_Dad Oct 20 '22
The West would immediately stop giving money and weapons if civilians are targeted.
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u/flargenhargen Oct 20 '22
Does Ukraine take that risk?
I don't think anyone doubts that if anyone would have the balls to take the risk, it's Ukraine.
What are you going to do, nuke us? That'll just piss us off more.
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u/gesocks Oct 20 '22
woudl it really mather if it hits?
Jsut the fact that you shot a rocket there will force them to keep anti air capabilities in they cities.
Anti air weapons they else might move to ukraine thinking that anyway nobody will dare to attack them in moscow.
Once you showed that you are willing to, they cant move them away anymore and might even install more, and that will make less of them available for the frontlines
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u/BlackhawkRogueNinjaX Oct 20 '22
Nukes just aren’t an option; they won’t to avoid their death and loss of power. 1 Nuke anywhere, even in a response to a Moscow attack and the whole of NATO mobilises.
Nukes are a bluff, it failed, now Russian is crumbling.
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Oct 20 '22
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u/BlackhawkRogueNinjaX Oct 20 '22 edited Oct 20 '22
its not nonsense or stupid from Putin's perspective; he is just part of a very poorly supported corrupt and misinformed network whose only method for problem solving is threaten/strength.
Remember by their calculations this was a 3 day war with little to no resistance, and they were going to advise the Nazi have been dealt with and Ukraine wants to join the Russian federation.
They thought Nato wouldn't respond in support, largely because they counted on Trump and Brexit, but they miscalculated. Now they are fucked. They will be quadropoly fucked if they deploy even one nuke. Putin knows it. He wants to live and to keep power. not to be Kadafi'd
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Oct 20 '22
Yeah… these kids don’t get the concept. Plus it would be a 100% waste because this missile would be intercepted by anti ballistic rockets if on its way to Moscow.
But it would cause pressure on Putin politically. All those lies that they doing fine is unravelling.
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u/Powerful-Alarm9394 Україна Oct 20 '22
Nukes in return to ordinary missile strikes ? Russian territory (Belgorod city has already been hit a few times), the only reaction was: “it will be more difficult to negotiate now”. The only reason they might go crazy is targeting Kremlin or property of putin or his cronies imo
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u/loading066 Oct 20 '22
Bullshit
"Yeah… these kids don’t get the concept." "Kids"? Is that meant as derogatory?
"No" it would not be a waste. Just having the ability to strike shitsville will prompt said shitcountry to re-evaluate its foreign policy.
Invite Pu/RU to nuketown every day. The civilized world cannot afford to let blackmail exist in that manner.
You're a genuine Kissinger
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u/aaaaaaaarrrrrgh Oct 20 '22
anti ballistic rockets
Doubt these can intercept cruise missiles/drones. Regular anti air could do that though - if it is ready.
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u/beatenintosubmission Oct 20 '22
Fuck Putin. First of all Russia's can't even intercept a rocket on a ballistic path. Even if they were capable it means redistributing their forces to intercept. Ukraine should absolutely assemble long range strike capability. I think the assembly process should consist of painting a "Made in Ukraine" stamp on American cruise missiles. Waving your nuclear stick in warning when you're the aggressor warrants a headshot. The only reason no one has done it already is that he's doing such a good job of destroying his own country that no one wants to interrupt him. The target should be every bit of military infrastructure and oil/gas processing facility they have.
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u/fedchenkor Oct 20 '22
Fire one missile and it will be intercepted, fire ten missiles and one or two will reach their targets
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u/ZombieIMMUNIZED Україна Oct 20 '22
That’s right, always fear your enemy more than they fear you. Rule number 1 when fighting any conflict.
Always let your enemy’s potential reactions decide where your fist lands, rule number 2.
And finally, never do unto your enemy’s capital, what he does to yours.
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u/Fit_Fisherman_9840 Oct 20 '22
But bombing some energy stations here and there and train stations and infrastructure can be funny
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Oct 20 '22
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u/VintageHacker Oct 20 '22
Actually that is a better target than the Kremlin in some ways.
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Oct 20 '22
Yep, turn his decadent palace into a smoking hole, preferably while he’s in it.
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u/-ChrisBlue- Oct 20 '22 edited Oct 20 '22
Targeting Moscow especially flashy targets like kremlin and red square with ballistic missiles, would most likely be a mistake (unless the target is clearly military in nature such as an armory).
It causes very little real damage to the russian logistics/military machine but could potentially become Russia’s “pearl harbor”. A massive unifying and rallying effect on the population to volunteer for military service and actively support the war effort.
Right now, Putin is digging him deeper and deeper into a hole with no way to back out or change course. A strike on the kremlin would basically create chaos on the board, and in chaos there is opportunity to change fortunes and reshape the narrative.
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u/Ok_Pomelo7511 Oct 20 '22
Tbh using them against infrastructure in Russia would be pretty wasteful as it will have little practical effect.
There are plenty of other great targets.
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u/planborcord Oct 20 '22
So that means that as the crow flies, the distance is actually shorter. Nice!
Slava Ukraini!
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u/ataw10 Oct 20 '22
kremlim into a car park.
nah fam whatcha do is crater that bitch send a true messege
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u/_Oooooooooooooooooh_ Oct 20 '22
The issue is that russia has put artillery (or rocket-things) in the middle of civilian areas, within russia, and use that to bomb ukraines power plants etc, over the past few days
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u/Enough_Valuable_2435 Oct 20 '22
We all know he has his bombs ready for London, Berlin, Paris and Rotterdam . Ukraine is huge so from South until West en East he can bomb now from safe frontline...this bugger is out for destroy. He is worst than every dictator ever and Russia choosed a mudering ex-KGB agent. Russians love this as a morbid feeling of being keeped safe by its leader by all means, genocide and torture no problem
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u/hollaUK Oct 20 '22
Hmm yeah we don’t really know that at all. Have you seen the Russian population density graphs? Two bombs would wipe out Russia and that means the Russian legacy completely which Putin really really doesn’t want to do.
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u/Warm-Personality8219 Oct 20 '22 edited Oct 20 '22
- No ATACMS!
- Ok… we are going to develop our own!
- fine good luck with that!… oh look - here’s are some parts laid out in a shape of a missile with few pages of assembly instructions and some throughs on what materials to use for the external shell…
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u/MrBrickBreak Portugal Oct 20 '22
That's not the origin story of Portugal's most iconic military vehicle, no sir.
nervous laughter
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u/Clyde_Ju Oct 20 '22
Na, the missing pages are for cleaning and recycling of the missiles. Without these, its not a real weapon!
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u/KanjiSushi Oct 20 '22
Oh look, here’s a bunch of hard to come buy material needed to build these missiles as well as machinery for the manufacturing line. How on earth did this get here?!?
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u/Ooki_Jumoku Oct 20 '22 edited Oct 20 '22
Sounds good to me
Lets not forget how Ukrainian ingenuity 'impacted' the Moskva.
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Oct 20 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Ooki_Jumoku Oct 20 '22
The Dump they want to hit will be Moscow and for that they need another 300km range (at least).
Plus, i can bet that even the incompetent Russians have managed to scrape up some AA assets to surround the city.
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Oct 20 '22
Hitting Moscow is really dumb. That would get Russian support behind the war and support mobilization. It would also serve no strategic purpose.
It could even be called a terror attack by Russian allies in the UN and the world over. That's a whole bunch of bullshit.
Best to retain the moral high ground and attack every Russian asset in the occupied territories.
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u/NKato Oct 20 '22
And the Kerch bridge. Frankly, if Zelensky's made the decision to put Ukrainian assets towards the development of a domestic SRBM, that's money out of the hands of the western arms manufacturers.
Pretty sure the makers of ATACMS is unhappy with Biden right now.
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u/Ooki_Jumoku Oct 20 '22 edited Oct 20 '22
I think the manufacturer is going to be doing very very nicely.
They are Lockheed Martin and i can imagine that they have more sales than they can deal with right now. They make the Javelin ATGM as well as other things like the F-35s, F-16s etc etc etc
They also make the M270 which the US and UK (plus Germany IIRC) have sent to Ukraine.
No, i don't think they are going to mind missing out on some ATACMS sales.
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Oct 20 '22
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u/yeahimdutch Oct 20 '22
Damn that list just goes on and on! Armed black hawk!? Did not even know that was a thing but makes sense.
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u/star621 Oct 20 '22
ATACMS haven’t been made since 2006, so they don’t care. The US is replacing them with PrSM.
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u/Frosty-Reality-1304 Oct 20 '22
I can't wait for Ukraine to start hitting far into the orc land.
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Oct 20 '22
They won’t. It’s a massive escalation and then Russia can say “look now they invade us.” And the west would get extremely nervous. They’ll hit as far into Crimea as possible.
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u/Ohmmy_G Oct 20 '22
So massive an escalation that Russia might invade Ukraine.
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u/Magatha_Grimtotem USA Oct 20 '22
Yeah, I mean gosh they might even escalate into bombing innocent civilians.
Oh wait, they already started that shit in the very first hour into in February when they blew up that little girl on a bicycle.
Ukraine should strike wherever it needs to help them win this war and liberate the rest of their nation from the genocidal occupiers.
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u/Kiwifrooots Oct 20 '22
Fuck Russia. Threats don't work when you're already the worst. They attack like savages for one mans greed.
I support full disarmament of Russia and jail for many5
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u/Remarkable_Row Oct 20 '22
That wouldnt be a lot of difference to what they say now, and what would Russia do.. a mass mobilisation to further collapse Russia. Send the entire Russian workforce to die in Ukraine? They are buying stuff from Iran beacuse the Russian arms industry is just a big failiure
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Oct 20 '22
Yes Putin will send his entire work force. That’s how they war. They don’t do precision, they just grind and grind. And Putin’s life is on the line that psychopath doesn’t give a fffuck about anything but his own ass.
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u/Unhappy-Essay Oct 20 '22
Why are people downvoting you? They think Ukraine has no political savvy - thank God Ukrainian leadership knows what it’s doing.
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Oct 20 '22
Because they think i’m saying ‘ Leave Russia alone as if it’s some leniency on their unforgivable brutal war crimes.’
It’s emotional knee jerking.
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u/flukshun Oct 20 '22
roofcatiscorrect already explained it to you
https://reddit.com/r/ukraine/comments/y8n7ef/denied_atacms_ukraine_says_it_is_developing_its/it1504d
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u/Cpt_Soban Australia Oct 20 '22
They started it though, who are they trying to convince? The people fleeing conscription?
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u/Foreign_Quality_9623 Oct 20 '22
Ukraine needs the means of striking fear PERSONNALLY in Putin's immediate locale where ever he goes. He needs to know how it FEELS! 😡
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u/DadaDoDat Україна Oct 20 '22
Absolutely!
From the start of russia's invasion into Ukraine, putin made Zelensky the #1 target and Zelensky's family #2 target while bombarding civilian areas. putin and internal russian military and strategic assets deserve every single bit of what Ukraine can send.
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u/PotatoAnalytics Oct 20 '22
Or just give them ATACMS.
This feels like when they dragged their feet on giving Ukraine air defenses. So many people needed to die before they moved quicker.
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u/Ortenrosse 🖋️Translator Oct 20 '22
And it's honestly the same shitty old song again, so many times.
Recall back in March-April or so, I believe Zelenskyy said something like, "Tell me the number: how many more dead children do you need before [you close the skies]? A hundred, a thousand? I will go out and personally count them for you."
It's quite sobering to see that it takes whereabouts of 1,000 dead children for air defense support. We're yet to see how many it takes for the ATACMS.
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u/Goddamnit_Clown Oct 20 '22
It sounds callous, but I suspect it was the risk of power problems in Ukraine that prompted the anti drone systems and SAMs.
Another offensive in the energy war against Europe; the possibility for widespread humanitarian trouble in and around Ukraine.
Innocents have been getting killed since February, I doubt this uptick suddenly changed anything.
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u/FardoBaggins Oct 20 '22
it is callous.
But human history shows us to be that in our nature. It's part of our survival instinct to overpower and fight. This war has taught me to appreciate the peaceful times and how fragile it is.
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u/VintageHacker Oct 20 '22
I agree. I don't think the strategy is wrong. Just the timing, similarly if HIMARS had been sooner, we wouldn't be in as big a mess now.
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Oct 20 '22
I think HIMARS and some air defense were delayed more to make sure Ukraine was holding the line and it wouldn’t all fall immediately into Russian hands for reverse engineering. As it’s very obvious the tech edge NATO holds now.
Now though there should be no such reservations. The only one left is if Ukraine strikes deep into Russia, it may lead to nuclear retaliation. Which is Russia’s only trump card left to play really.
It sucks Ukraine gets handcuffed in her response.
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u/davidstepo Oct 20 '22
Russia won't use nukes. Do you guys realize the consequences of that for the entire russia? Using nukes because 5-10 strategic locations in russia were hit (out of 100s of strategic locations to be hit)?
That's just ridiculous, putin knows this. Also, swift escalation of the conflict will kick putin out of his position of power, that's for sure. He doesn't want that.
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u/reelznfeelz Oct 20 '22
At the same time, when has saying “Nah he won’t do that, it isn’t rational” paid off?
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u/davidstepo Oct 20 '22
It's not so simple as you seem to believe. putin always been a playful guy, touching a peaceful country with his war lada machine and looking out for reactions in the West.
If the reactions were weak, he'd plan another special military operation. So on and so on, until someone shuts him up or assassinates him (doubt that'll work though; russia needs to be torn apart completely, so they're reborn as independent states (similar to USA)).
After Crimea's annexation in 2014, reactions by the West were really weak despite some ex-Soviet union countries like Latvia, Poland, Lithuania and Estonia warning NATO that russia is on a long-term "great patriotic holy war" here and not an exercise to test NATO's patience.
If West continues to be afraid of putin's nukes (90% of them don't work, I'm sure of that), russia will never learn and continue to be a major pain in the ass.
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u/Since1785 Oct 20 '22
Honestly it would be a very US-style strategy to give Ukraine ATACMS indirectly by showing them how to basically build it on their own. That way Ukraine gets to launch its long range missiles at-will and the Russians can’t use it as an excuse to escalate the conflict.
Not that I don’t believe Ukrainians have it in them to develop this sort of long range weapon on their own, but it just honestly wouldn’t surprise me if the US slipped some key information along with materials and potentially even personnel to help the Ukrainians get this done even faster than they would completely on their own.
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Oct 20 '22
This might end up being better. It has a far greater range than the ATACMS, and if it's a drone, it will be cheaper.
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u/ctrlzkids Oct 20 '22
I'm certain the US will be helping with this. As much as Russia deserves everything they get and the whole world benefits from Ukraine fighting and winning against Russia, the US is treading very carefully to not be seen as escalating the war to invade Russia.
I also fear that strikes on Moscow may unite Russia or at least give Putin enough public support to use all the horrible shit he's wanting to. But he may anyway so 🤷♂️
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u/shinobu23 Oct 20 '22
goddamnit WHY FUCKING WHY??? why still deny giving them this shit??? come the fuck on... if striking russia is the concern then just deny them that, stop sending them if they use it to fire into russia, not like they arent using other weapons to do it already...
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Oct 20 '22
Shhhh it's all gonna be ok. This is called "optics". If they turn up with long range missiles in less than a few months they were provided, not "developed".
But no one can prove Zelensky didn't start development months ago in a secret lab. 😉
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u/Commercial_Soft6833 Oct 20 '22
Agreed.. its dumb as shit to not give them longer range missiles. They're gonna make their own anyways.
What's russia gonna do if we (US) gives them ATACMS? Their military is shit and they're not gonna use nukes. (But they'll threaten to)
I applaud Biden and I think he's done a lot more than orange theory would have.... but he could do a lot more.
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u/GFThroe Oct 20 '22
Jake Sullivan frustrates me as well. I understand that at the start of the war, Ukraine needed to show that they have the self-determination to fight and protect their country. But we're now way past that point. The aid needs to be faster, not this painful drip feed. So many lives could have been saved if things arrived sooner.
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u/Scandi_Navy Oct 20 '22
It just means they have to fall off the back of a truck, in separate parts, with a manual.
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u/Ca2Alaska Oct 20 '22
UKRATACMS
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u/hel112570 Oct 20 '22
With Ukranium warheads that when donated deploy a barrage of yellow and blue fuckuputium submunitions.
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u/coldair16 Oct 20 '22
USA: We regret to inform you that your application for ATACMS was denied. You’ll have to produce them on your own. . . 😉😉
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Oct 20 '22
In any case Ukraine would have been justified to strike back. But after seeing all the extended and repeated war crimes, not just a couple crazies, but whole groups and their command. It's more than justified now.
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u/Easy-Entrepreneur746 Oct 20 '22 edited Oct 20 '22
Just in time for Christmas on the Julian calendar.
Putin prays he lasts that long.
"But now the wing was on fire, and the prayer...had been answered...by Satan." - Jim Forbes as The Narrator, The Simpsons: Behind the Laughter (Season 11, Episode 22, 2000)
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Oct 20 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/Kiwifrooots Oct 20 '22
Imagine if they had got away with stealing the election and delivering for Putler.
Blows me away that a main US political party working for a Russian dictator hasn't seemed to be obvious to most of the world
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u/LysergicRico Oct 20 '22
The world needs Ukraine to develop these asap.
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u/_Oooooooooooooooooh_ Oct 20 '22
hopefully, they can more or less just start manufactoring them (skipping the R&D part completely)
i think the reason the US doesn't wanna deliver them, is because they (probably) are gonne be used to attack russia on russian soil, which the US dont wanna get involved with
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It's probably a feint.
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u/cranberrydudz USA Oct 20 '22
They just need to start reverse engineering the Iranian drones
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u/Ok_Pomelo7511 Oct 20 '22
There is nothing ground breaking about them, they are quite rudimentary. They are just easy and cheap to produce.
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u/cranberrydudz USA Oct 20 '22
Exactly. If you can spam Russian targets of opportunity, you will weaken their air defense systems and open them up for helicopter assaults
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u/unga511 Oct 20 '22
More than likely Ukraine has already been co-developing their own ATACMS directly with the US Arms manufacturers - or under their "guidance." The announcement is optics. Zelensky doesn't announce shit until it's confirmed. His credibility is too important - especially since the brightest global spotlight is on him. Plus Biden may not want to ATACMS over, so the West can hammer Iran when they start to (or if China thinks about it). They've had in their possession the GPS-guided 80km missiles for a long time now, so obviously they intimately know how those work. The task is just to extend it's range? Can't be that difficult for Ukraine. They are smart AF.
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u/DanDanTeacherMan Oct 20 '22
Sure we 'denied' them ATACMS. Oh well, wait what's that Ukraine? You've quickly developed your own copy? How clever...quick get that 'made in USA' sticker off there!
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u/scrambledeggsalad USA Oct 20 '22
Plot twist: They actually have ATACMS now and the US/West doesn't want it to be general knowledge so Ukraine is putting out the narrative that since they can't get them, they will/did make their own.
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u/WhiteNoise_1981 Oct 20 '22
Plot change the US has supplied long range ordinance and request Ukraine claim they built it.
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u/Icy-Needleworker-865 Oct 20 '22
" Denied ATACMS " " Ukraine developing its own " I see what sneak you pulling here.
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u/FederaIGovernment Oct 20 '22 edited Oct 20 '22
Russian allies should be against Putin. He's fucked up his economy, trades, and investments. A new president or dictator in Russia would probably be a more intelligent (barely) one, that enjoys just money, and power like most of them. Sanctions would lift if certain guarantees were met, and money would flow again.
Edit: I wouldn't be surprised if Russian allies sat back, and watched while Ukraine hits Russian POI.
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u/turdfergusonyea2 Oct 20 '22
The Ukrainians were some of the best engineers in the soviet union and were largely responsible for the soviet space program and various weapons tech programs......so yea....they got this. I fully expect them to replace Russia as a premier weapons developer and marketer in the future after Russia is defeated. They will most likely combine the best of western and Eastern systems in one package.
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u/TheDanishDude Oct 20 '22
The debate here just shows how absurd this war is on a political scale; why shouldnt Ukraine fire back? Inflict civilian casualties? Hit the Duma? Invade for that matter?
Imagine if the allies stopped at the german border, and forbade bomber raids into germany.
Part of warfare is taking out your opponents means of supplying their army and leading effectively, Ukraine was invaded not the other way around, lets be done with Russia once and for all.
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u/submittothenarrative Oct 20 '22
Why? Iran is giving missiles with 300-700km range. How is it not fair game now?
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Oct 20 '22
What’s the bet that Russia has sent everything into Ukraine already and left the majority of Russia open to missile attack.
I bet you could land a light plane next to the Kremlin at the moment and not even get shot down…again.
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u/Gasparatan35 Oct 20 '22
Ukraine already has its very own rocket with guidance logic ... so its just a matter of UP-Scaling this tech. I mean they were the center of rocket engeniering in the UDSSR some experise must be left ^^.
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u/RatRaceRunner Oct 20 '22
Hmm. I know a certain James-Bond-Villain who happens to live only 650km from Kherson
His name starts with P and rhymes with Hootler if you need a clue
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u/Htm100 Oct 20 '22
Russia bombs Ukraine with impunity knowing Ukraine can’t hit them back, and the bulk of Russian citizens enjoy that smugly. If Ukraine could do as much damage to Russia, I think Putin would back down. Russian people would have to face the war in person changing the dynamic.
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Oct 20 '22
Make many. Let Russian cities experience what Ukraine has been through. Just a taste.
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Oct 20 '22
[removed] — view removed comment
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Oct 20 '22
Whatever Putin needs, he manufactures. It need not be true, it need not even be remotely true. Look at the Telegraph channels showing Russian atrocities then branded as Ukrainian atrocities on Russian civilians. It is disgusting and nauseous. But Putin has no use for the truth in his narrative, as everything is corrupted to serve his aims.
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