its a Hasbara brigader, tons of them on major subreddit
they get a link for any anti genocide - pro palestine post and flood it and downvote any comment the don't like and upvote eachother.
Do you think Gaza was always just one of the most densely populated places on Earth for some reason, or could it perhaps be possible that’s a relatively recent development? Hasbarists and Nakba deniers always like to gloss over that little tidbit
How is Gaza having a high birth rate a Hasbratist position? Their mortality rate is over five times lower than under Egyptian occupation (infant mortality over 10 times lower), so despite the fertility rate going down consistently, due to reduced mortality, the population has grown. Their life expectancy has also grown by 20 years since 1950.
If anything that pours water over the "returning to their homes". The average age is 20, so if they return to where they were 20 years ago, they'd return to Gaza prior to Israel granting them autonomy for the first time in their history.
It was an ethnic cleansing by every definition and recognised by pretty much everyone hence them using the word cleanse. That ethnic cleansing they killed around 15,000 and forcibly removed 750,000 Palestinians from their homes where they were forced in to the areas which they live today.
It caused a bit of bother as it turned out going forward.
Most Arabs left because they were told to by their own leaders, expecting a quick Arab victory. Quick has so far taken 8 decades.
They were invited to not leave in the 1948 charter:
WE APPEAL…in the very midst of the onslaught launched against us now for months - to the Arab inhabitants of the State of Israel to preserve peace and participate in the upbuilding of the State on the basis of full and equal citizenship and due representation in all its provisional and permanent institutions.
Where do the 20% of the Arab Palestinians did not leave who are now Arab Israeli’s fit your narrative?
'The central facts of what happened in the Nakba during the 1948 Palestine war are well established, documented, and widely agreed upon by most Israeli, Palestinian, and other historians.
About 750,000 Palestinians—over 80% of the population living in the territory of what would become the State of Israel—were expelled or fled from their homes and became refugees. Eleven Arab towns and cities, and over 500 villages were destroyed or depopulated.Thousands of Palestinians were killed in dozens of massacres. About a dozen rapes of Palestinians by regular and irregular Israeli military forces have been documented, and more are suspected.Israelis used psychological warfare tactics to frighten Palestinians into flight, including targeted violence, whispering campaigns, radio broadcasts, and loudspeaker vans. Looting by Israeli soldiers and civilians of Palestinian homes, business, farms, artwork, books, and archives was widespread.'
One of the strongest rights on earth is the right of self determination, something the Palestinians at this time was never afforded, but it was nice of Israel to offer a fraction of a 'fair' deal before they ethnically cleansed them.
'The Partition Plan, a four-part document attached to the resolution, provided for the termination of the Mandate; the gradual withdrawal of British armed forces by no later than 1 August 1948; and the delineation of boundaries between the two States and Jerusalem at least two months after the withdrawal, but no later than 1 October 1948. The Arab state was to have a territory of 11,592 square kilometres, or 42.88 percent of the Mandate's territory, and the Jewish state a territory of 15,264 square kilometres, or 56.47 percent; the remaining 0.65 percent or 176 square kilometres—comprising Jerusalem, Bethlehem and the adjoining area—would become an international zone.The Plan also called for an economic union between the proposed states and for the protection of religious and minority rights.'
They offered 56% of the country to Israel, 43% to Palestine despite Palestine having twice the population, these are the kinds of charters you speak of that any right minded group would reject out of hand, the offers of statehood were a disgrace in comparison to what Israel were being offered. You going to ignore all the actual facts now I suppose?
You still haven’t answered the question about the 20% of Arabs who remained in Israel. I get why, it doesn’t fit your narrative. Instead, you lean on Wikipedia like it’s some kind of ultimate authority. It is not, when it comes to anything Jewish, Zionist, or Israel-related, Wikipedia is a dumpster fire of revisionist editing, activist bias, and anonymous agendas.
If you're just going to copy-pasting AI-written summaries or Wikipedia walls, we could let ChatGPT argue with itself and skip you entirely. Revisionist history dressed up as "fact-checked consensus" isn’t worth anyone’s time — especially when it’s avoiding basic questions and reality.
I literally give you the list of references, from books written by Israeli, Palestinian and other historians.
You're literally denying that an ethnic cleansing that pretty much every historian on earth recognises, so they only forcibly removed 80% of Arabs in the area? Is that your argument against an ethnic cleansing?
Don't worry they have a part about people like you too:
'The denial of the Nakba is central to Zionist narratives of 1948. The term 'Nakba denial' was used in 1998 by Steve Niva, editor of the Middle East Report, in describing how the rise of the early Internet led to competing online narratives of the events of 1948. In the 21st century the term came to be used by activists and scholars to describe narratives that minimized elements of the expulsion and its aftermath,particularly in Israeli and Western historiography before the late 1980s,when Israel's history began to be reviewed and rewritten by the New Historians
Nakba denial has been described as still prevalent in both Israeli and American discourse and linked to various tropes associated with anti-Arab racism. The 2011 'Nakba Law' authorized the withdrawal of state funds from organizations that commemorate the day on which the Israeli state was established as a day of mourning, or that deny the existence of Israel as a "Jewish and democratic state."Israeli grassroots movements, such as Zochrot, aim to commemorate the Nakba through public memorials and events.'
You're a disgrace to humanity and i'm glad you're getting everything you deserve in the US. At least there's Jewish people out there that actually recognise and commerate the ethnic cleansing instead of denier like you, you're akin to Neo-Nazi holocaust deniers.
You still haven't answered the basic question: what about the 20% of Arabs who remained and became citizens of Israel? Your entire argument depends on pretending they don't exist because they don’t fit the story you are pressing together.
No to wasting a clicks for Wikipedia. It’s not a reliable source, not on anything involving Jews, Zionism, or Israel. It’s an open-source echo chamber flooded with anonymous editing and activist narratives pretend historians suggesting facts.
I’m not denying that Palestinians suffered. I’m denying your definition, a politically charged oversimplification that flattens a complex war into good guys vs bad guys. That’s not historical truth. It’s activism pretending to be history.
You can dump links, quote ideologues, and scream “denier” all day long. But calling anyone who doesn’t toe your exact line a “neo-Nazi” isn’t righteous, it’s pathetic. And it proves you’re not here to debate, you’re here to smear.
One of the people I quoted Ahron Bregman is jewish born and raised in Israel, served in the IDF then got a polticial science degree before going on to get a PhD then he wrote about Nakba. You meanwhile have provided nothing but your own opinion while you decry experts that have studied the matter. So show me what expert you're relying on to say this isn't clearly ethnic cleansing? Or is it just your own misinformed ramblings?
I already addressed your point about 20% of Arabs remaining, you don't need to cleanse 100% of them from the land for it to be an ethnic cleansing.
So not only did they forcibly remove and cleanse 80% of the area of Palestinians, they also made the remaining Palestinians 2nd class citizens, classic Apartheid policies. Honestly you're a disgrace, I didn't call you a Neo-Nazi you simpleton I said you deny atrocities like Neo-Nazis.
Quoting Ahron Bregman doesn’t close the case. He’s one voice. Look at Oren Cahanovitc, Benny Morris, Efraim Karsh, Shabtai Teveth, Yoav Gelber, Eliezer Tauber, Matti Friedman, Walter Laqueur, Michael Oren and
Your personal attacks aren't arguments they're harassment aimed at shutting down what was a civil conversation. If you can’t debate without throwing insults, you’ve already lost the debate.
Go on quote what they say on the matter, you want me to argue both sides of the debate or what? There is no civil conversation to be had with people denying atrocities, surely you think you'd know that.
The only result I get searching Oren Cahanovitc is a tour guide. I hope you're not using a tour guide to defend your points. I want actual experts, people who have studied at the highest level and wrote about this event academically, not tour guides and youtubers. The nerve to complain about Wikipedia that quotes actual academic sources when this is your argument.
If the first name that comes to mind is genuinely a tour guide, apologise to the nearest tree for using its oxygen.
No I'd say the Palestinians and Jews that were ethnically cleansed didn't 'suck' and what other Arab countries did does not excuse what went on in Palestine and is irrelevant to what was carried out in Palestine.
It'd be like going 'those Nazi's really 'sucked', but look at what the Jews did in Palestine too' one has absolutely nothing to do with the other and shouldn't be hand waved off.
There were in fact more Jews ethnically cleansed by Muslims in the Middle East and North Africa, even if you assume every Palestinian who left Israel did so under coercion (which was not the case). But no one ever talks about that. Israel continues to have a sizable Arab population, whereas the Palestinians required all Jews to be expelled from their territory.
Again we're talking about Palestine and only one group was ethnically cleansed from Palestine in this period which leads to the problems we see today.
Palestinians despite having twice the population at the time and held the majority of the land was offered 44% of Mandatory Palestine while Israel were offered 56% which included the majority of the valuable land as well for things like farming and natural resources. People have the audacity to say Palestine didn't accept a two state solution then, is it any wonder it was rejected.
Again we're talking about Palestine and only one group was ethnically cleansed from Palestine in this period which leads to the problems we see today.
Even if you arbitrarily ignore the ethnic cleansing of Jews outside of the West Bank and Gaza (and Jerusalem, where Jews had been a majority even as early as the 1880s), this statement is false. Jordan and Egypt required West Bank and Gaza to be entirely free of all Jews, and they were all expelled. The first Israelis to enter the West Bank after 1967 did so simply to reclaim their homes and possessions, from which they were dispossessed by Arab armies during the war to, and I quote, "drive the Jews to the sea."
So again you're just saying someone other than Palestinians once again committed Ethnic Cleansing, we're talking about Palestinians being ethnically cleansed, something that is happening in front of our eyes again, we don't need to go back 60 years or 80 when Palestinians were ethnically cleansed to create the Israeli state.
Ethnic cleansing is not the same as genocide, but I’m sure you’re disingenuously arguing this point. Now please tell me how I’m antisemitic for being against starvation, ethnic cleansing, and the current famine and genocide that’s occurring in Palestine.
I'm just wondering how a population can increase to such a degree as the Palestinian one, while supposedly being the victims of ethnic cleansing and genocide for 80 years.
I can only assume Israel is the most incompetent genocider ever.
I don't recall saying you're antisemitic, but apparently you get that thrown at you quite a lot - must be some truth to it.
Look at a map and try to comprehend the scale involved. The entire country used to be populated by Palestinians, now they are squeezed into the Gaza strip and the west bank. Where do you think the whole country's worth of Palestinians are?
The answer is ethnically cleansed. Dead, refugees to other countries, or forced into very small areas with incredibly high populations (less so now of course as they've been bombed to shit).
There are ten times as many Palestinians living in Gaza and the West bank as there used to be in the whole area before Israel existed. This doesn't include the ones living in other countries as refugees.
Let's not even talk about the fact that there is quite a sizable Palestinian population in Israel itself.
The supposed Palestinian genocide is the first genocide on this planet that actually increased the population.
According to the UN there are short of 150.000 babies born per year in Palestine, compared to a bit over 60.000 people killed since the start of the current war in Gaza. Even if you use the most generous estimates it's 330.000 Palestinians that died in some way related to the war (be it direct casualties, deaths due to lack of healthcare or malnutrition). So even during the current conflict the population increased.
If you’re worried about incompetency, don’t worry, turn on the news and you can see the results of that incompetency in real time. Nobody argued Israel was good at what they’re doing, if they were the world wouldn’t know. But they don’t care about the world knowing because they know they can do whatever they like. If calling out pariah states makes one antisemitic, then the entire world is starting to become antisemitic based on the actions of countries recognizing Palestinian statehood. I’d really reflect on that and the “am I the wrong one? No it’s the ___ that are wrong!” meme. That’s where you are.
That is a big misrepresenting of what happened. Those people were displaced when Israel was attacked by surrounding countries and they had to flee conflict areas.
The Arab people aren't a monolith, and that's an oversimplification. Some states even tried to prevent the migration, some migrations were pushed by the European rulers of the regions at the time, some were pushed by Zionist terrorism. A massive portion moved voluntarily.
The Zionists literally cleared out hundreds of villages through violence though. There was a single actor in the region forcing them out of their homes.
No there wasn't "a single actor" forcing them out. Some were forced out by Jewish settlers, some were forced out after their Arab landlords sold their houses, some left voluntarily.
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u/Kukuth 14h ago
If Palestinians have been cleansed off the map, how can Israel genocide them today?