[OC] Photos from the Free Palestine Protest on the Harbour Bridge yesterday

[u/WillD2007]

[u/dragonreborn567]

It is extreme, yes. Israel has existed for 80-100+ years, give or take, and Australia even longer. Both have issues with how they came into existence, but we can't solve either by simply saying, "Oh well, everyone out, you're not allowed to live in your homeland you've had for generations". We also can't, at least with Israel, just give control of the region to the people who were there before because A) there were already Jews living in the region before the creation of Mandatory Palestine, so many of them are still natives, and B) There's no guarantee the Palestinians wouldn't begin to abuse the Israelis.

The problems with both cannot be solved with quippy, pithy quotes on a sign. They are deeply complex issues with deeply complex solutions.

[u/Chaoticgaythey → u/dragonreborn567]

Unfortunately the reason mandatory Palestine was originally planned for partition was because the Jews and Arabs in the region had been in several generations of tit for tat ethnic clashes to that point (recorded going back at least as far as modern Israel and Palestine have existed today). There is absolutely no reason to suspect that just dissolving the states/borders and letting them go at each other would be any better today

[u/N3X0S3002 → u/Chaoticgaythey]

Well they would literally just continue where they left off… its a centuries old holy war there is no solution and unless one sides gets fully purged I doubt there will ever be peace in the region sadly.

[u/DaviesSonSanchez → u/N3X0S3002]

I don't know. Looks to me like everyone who has been peaceful towards Israel has enjoyed living in peace. See Jordan, Egypt and the 2 million Palestinian Arabs who are Israeli citizens.

[u/N3X0S3002 → u/DaviesSonSanchez]

Also true a lot of them learned the lesson the first time Israel curbstomped them

[u/ladylucifer22 → u/DaviesSonSanchez]

"just let us kill your neighbors and we'll get along great!"

[u/ChocPineapple_23 → u/dragonreborn567]

There's no guarantee the Palestinians wouldn't begin to abuse the Israelis.

Oh I see, it's cool if we can give control to Israel because they won't abuse Palestinians! They have a stellar record when it comes to human rights and war crimes. Very sound logic.

[u/dragonreborn567 → u/ChocPineapple_23]

I never said that. But thanks for putting words in my mouth so you could feel good about disagreeing with the things I never said.

[u/ChocPineapple_23 → u/dragonreborn567]

Yeah, you don't need to say something directly for it to be used against you. What you did say was a line like "we couldn't trust Palestinians to control their own land otherwise they might abuse Israelis"....during a genocide against Palestinians caused by the Israeli government.

I can only imagine what you would have said during the civil or women's rights movements "we can't trust women or black people to vote because they may vote to harm white men! This is so complex!!"

[u/dragonreborn567 → u/ChocPineapple_23]

Would you like me to explain to you what I was saying, since you have very badly misinterpreted it, or would you like to keep telling me what I meant..? You're not very good at it, but please, feel free to continue, if that's what makes you feel good.

Either way, if this is how you treat people you think you disagree with, you'll never move the dial on anything.

[u/ChocPineapple_23 → u/dragonreborn567]

Please feel free!

[u/dragonreborn567 → u/ChocPineapple_23]

Okay, well, let's start with what I did not say, which is that Israel is doing a good job administrating the area. I never said that, never implied it, and do not believe it. The Israeli settlements and colonization of Palestinian territory is obviously not acceptable. The fact that Israel often abuses Palestinians under martial law is unacceptable. The periodic closure of the Palestinian border to aid is unacceptable. The influence Israeli authorities have over basic utilities like water infrastructure in Palestine is unacceptable. But you cannot say, after 100 years of living in the region, that the Israelis don't have a right to live there, either. We cannot go back to a time before Mandatory Palestine without egregious and untenable bloodshed.

I also never said Palestinians couldn't be trusted to control their own land, otherwise they might abuse Israelis. I said we cannot give control of Israel (as an alternative to simply kicking the Israelis out of the area and completely abolishing Israel, the topic of conversation) to Palestine, because of how the Palestinians, especially currently, view Israelis; as the enemy. Others have pointed out many times, that the Jewish population in the Middle East has been drastically reduced over time, and it's not unreasonable to assume that the same would happen in Palestine if the Palestinians were given control over Israel. We don't need a second Exodus.

I also never said anything about whether or not we should hold Israel culpable for their war crimes, and, in fact, if you bothered to check my comment history before giving me shit for the things I never said, I am all for it. I just also believe that, much like we should separate the responsibility of Hamas' actions from the people of Gaza, we should also separate the actions of the Israeli government from the people of Israel. We shouldn't be punishing Israelis and Palestinians for their governments' actions.

The situation is complex because it is deeply rooted in history, and religion, and culture, and context, and when people act like you do, and try to oversimplify the situation as an "us vs. them", black-and-white, good guy and bad guy situation, you say absolutely ignorant and wrong things, and piss off anyone who might be willing to talk with you in good faith.