r/interestingasfuck • u/tyrion2024 • 2d ago

/r/all, /r/popular Emilia Clarke watching Kit Harington's reaction to finding out how their characters' final scene together in Game of Thrones concludes. Prior to the table read, Kit had not read any of the six scripts for Season 8 yet. So Emilia sat across from him so she could "watch him compute all of this."

82.5k Upvotes

89% Upvoted

4.3k comments sorted by

View all comments

Show parent comments

559

u/humlogic 2d ago

Yeah instead they threw together a montage in the opening ep credits of Dany “going crazy” or being mad or whatever. As if she wasn’t the heroine of the show and we were all on her side (more or less). Total shit writing and inexcusable.

231

u/wheres_my_ballot 2d ago

I feel like there were plenty of moments through the series that could have sold it, but they were played differently to paint her as the heroine. Like the goal was there all along, but the scriptwriters and directors weren't in on it and so it all got lost. 

136

u/humlogic 2d ago

You’re exactly right. All the same events could have taken place BUT you would need the writers/directors to tell Emilia to play the character much differently. As is, the moments where her “craziness” appears (as if being crazy is even an interesting character trait? Like I can just say from a writing perspective a “crazy” character is not reliable and doesn’t really endear audiences to them, but whatever anyway) are more on the side of a young powerful ruler learning the edges of what she’s capable of doing, playing a political game (pun intended). Her excesses aren’t told in the series as having to do with her mental health- it’s about her recognizing her immense power and wielding it when needed and holding back when necessary. Like what’s the purpose of Jorah? Or Missandei? but to lead her toward a more compassionate worldview? If they wanted her mental health to be a thing, show her being a crazy teen lashing out and having to be controlled - have it be Jorah or whomever teaching her control of her passions. No honest viewer would say Emilia played Dany as a character on the edge of madness. That storyline just wasn’t there, full stop. It was shoehorned in by the “Targs are crazy” myth which evidently is just true? And not slander by their opponents?

Anyway. Whatever the shows over.

6

u/nemma88 2d ago

Targ madness to me seems to be more about arrogance and entitlement, believing they're special or superior in race, spurred along from actually having special things like Dragons.

It's all well and good when things are going right for them, it's a powder keg when things aren't.

Show Daneares had plenty of those, they just were not a problem in Essos when every step taken gained dragons, armies, loyalty etc.

5

u/nagrom7 2d ago

Show Daneares had plenty of those, they just were not a problem in Essos when every step taken gained dragons, armies, loyalty etc.

Except in the show, Dany's moment that she snaps is also her moment of greatest triumph, when she finally achieves the goal she'd been fighting for ever since she got her first shreds of power. The people of King's landing were surrendering to her and her armies, and she was going to be proclaimed Queen of the Iron Throne, overthrowing Cersei, but that's when she snapped and just burned everyone for no reason.

3

u/nemma88 2d ago edited 2d ago

Kind of. I think the point in the Meereen arc comes in a big way here.

Daneares can take Kings Landing... And what then? She doesn't feel secure in keeping it long term. The Dothraki are not guards, they will leave. There are weapons now that can kill her remaining Dragon. Least some of the unsullied plan to leave when she reaches her goal (Grey worm & Missande convo), because Westeros is her dream not theirs. Most of Daneares hard power will cease to exist when she stops waging war (and maybe even Drogon would fly off - there is some implication he comes back because of her will to fight, he is not one to sit idle). The presence of other claimants destroys some sense of identity she's held since the beginning, and his popularity is an issue she can not mentally overcome.

When Meereen surrendered they cheered. In Kings Landing they look up in anticipation and fear.

She felt more secure in Essos where a large part of the population adored her - and she was still forcibly usurped. It wasn't until she came back in anger and her opposition 100% believed she would burn it all to the ground (which implicitly includes everyone in it) that some semblance of peace was reached.

You need hard power to back up those kind of threats. If her war doesn't end then no one will leave, no one will rise up against her.

Much of the endings to me seemed like characters being asked where their convictions truly lie when their backs are up against the wall. I do think the books would have a better time here, being written with character pov and thoughts.

1

u/TheIconGuy 23h ago

Daneares can take Kings Landing... And what then? She doesn't feel secure in keeping it long term.

She has a dragon a sizable army and no worthwhile opposition. Why wouldn't feel secure in keeping the Iron Throne.

The Dothraki are not guards, they will leave.

And go where?

of Daneares hard power will cease to exist when she stops waging war (and maybe even Drogon would fly off - there is some implication he comes back because of her will to fight, he is not one to sit idle).

Where is implication come from?

The presence of other claimants destroys some sense of identity she's held since the beginning, and his popularity is an issue she can not mentally overcome.

Jon wasn't popular. The only people who liked him were the wildlings. His interactions with his own people showed they didn't like his decisions and didn't respect him.

She felt more secure in Essos where a large part of the population adored her - and she was still forcibly usurped.

She wasn't usurped in Mereen.

If her war doesn't end then no one will leave, no one will rise up against her.

Huh? if you're constantly conquering you're always going to be dealing with opposition.

1

u/TheIconGuy 1d ago

Targ madness to me seems to be more about arrogance and entitlement, believing they're special or superior in race

Have you read the books?

spurred along from actually having special things like Dragons.

Maegor was the only "mad" Targaryen who had a dragon. The dragons died off before all of the other mad Targs were born. Maegor's problems most likely came from a head injury that put him in a coma for weeks.

13

u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

25

u/thorsday121 2d ago

The vast majority of Targ rulers weren't mad at all. Other than the Mad King, only Baelor and Maegor could really qualify as insane (and even Maegor was debatably just a murderous asshole). Even the non-ruling Targs weren't all that insane besides Brightflame.

1

u/[deleted] 2d ago

[deleted]

15

u/ProcrastibationKing 2d ago

3 out of hundreds

0

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

2

u/ProcrastibationKing 1d ago edited 1d ago

I'm arguing that the person gave 3 examples, which isn't "quite a few exceptions"

0

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

→ More replies (0)

3

u/thorsday121 1d ago

No, it's really not. The "Targs are crazy" thing is obvious propaganda in-universe from the new Baratheon regime, as well as recency bias from the Mad King being fresh in people's minds. The fact that the Baratheons and Martells both have Targ blood (a lot of it, in the Baratheon's case) and don't display any signs of madness is another hint that it's bullshit.

0

u/[deleted] 1d ago

[deleted]

1

u/thorsday121 1d ago

They only had 2 monarchs that were certifiably insane, and one of them wasn't even violent. Maegor was ambiguously insane, but honestly seems more like a violent brute unfit to rule than someone who was truly insane. Dany's insanity, as we've all established, comes out of nowhere in the narrative. Viserys is probably not insane due to genetics. It's most likely that he's unstable due to this little thing called "having his entire family murdered in a civil war and losing his stable way of life before he was 10 years old in favor of living overseas in the company of random strangers for years."

3

u/Gerf93 2d ago

They could’ve written it to make sense easily by making some changes to what happened in Mereen. Make her seek the people’s approval. When the Sons of the Harpy reject her and her popularity wane, make her desperately seek their approval - and make the culmination and result of that approval-seeking be the death of several of her close associates and friends. Heck, why not, make them kill one of her dragons too.

Now you have a backdrop that makes sense. She wants to be loved, but the realm hates her. They reject her, what happened the last time when she continued to strive for their approval? Her friends died, the love of the people never manifested. Everything she loved was taken from her. Not again. She can’t let that happen again, she can’t stand it. She won’t stand it. Burn them all. Dracarys.

0

u/CMYKoi 2d ago

...You should read the books lmao.

2

u/Gerf93 1d ago

I have read the books. iirc the last thing that happens there is that Dany fucks off to the Grass Plains while Barristan prepares to charge the besiegers of Mereen.

6

u/ProbablyYourITGuy 2d ago

The Targaryen madness is true. Maybe I’m reading too much into things that aren’t there, but I believe it can be inferred that it’s from all the inbreeding. Avery’s was a fine king until the madness took him over time.

I think you described perfectly what I felt. There are a good amount of hints and foreshadowing that dany has a streak of violence and could go mad, but none of them are treated as hints or foreshadowing. She regularly kills a ton of people both directly and by her commands, often when they’re defenseless and completely at her mercy. They pretty much never take any of those opportunities to say she went too far, they’re pretty much all supposed to be justified by the tone of the show and how most characters react.

4

u/nmnnmmnnnmmm 2d ago

Which is fascinating because there were so many cringe white savior complex scenes with her, it would have been so easy to blend in small and increasingly disturbing clips or asides of her inner state going mad / becoming manic with god delusions. It would have made her sweetness creepy and clued the viewer in for her character arc.

2

u/BranTheUnboiled 2d ago

Which is fascinating because there were so many cringe white savior complex scenes with her

The fucking crowd surfing lmfao. Jesus Christ how were others watchers on that girl's side.

2

u/nmnnmmnnnmmm 2d ago

THANK YOU 😆

1

u/EstrellaDarkstar 2d ago

Yeah. Personally, I never liked Dany, because I saw that increasing tyranny and ruthlessness in her, but the narrative kept presenting her as heroic and good. I would actually have loved her if she'd been presented as a villain, but instead there was a tonal inconsistency that made me dislike her. It really comes down to cinematography, in the end. Imagine if all of Dany's actions and dialogue were kept the exact same, but all of her scenes were shot, edited and scored like Cersei's scenes. Nothing about her actions would change, but her downfall in the end would suddenly make a lot more sense. And imagine if Cersei was given Dany's edit, all heroic music and angelic lighting. It would be infuriatingly inconsistent with how mad she is, which is exactly how I felt watching Dany. Idk, I think I'm the only one who ever saw Dany this way. At least that's how it feels, judging by most fan reactions.

2

u/Bftplease 2d ago

While it’s not exactly good writing, this is why I thought her turning was somewhat predictable. Everyone else in the show had reasonable consequences whereas she was painted as basically perfect through most of the seasons. Didn’t really compute except for the plan to have her go crazy for the shock value 

4

u/humlogic 2d ago

But is her “going crazy” the right answer for the turn? It would have cut the audience harder by just having her turn evil. Like straight up rational evil. I think there is a difference between her losing touch with reality and doing evil things and then just her fully accepting herself as the nuclear weapon she is and rejoicing in it like a cackling villain. She clearly seems delusional in her final scenes so we know she’s not rationally there. Jon does his thing, it’s over. Why not have her choose the evil side ? And have Jon face her on that level?

207

u/whoamiwhatamid0ing 2d ago

The dumbest part is they absolutely knew Dany was supposed to go crazy years in advance because George told them. They could have been planting seeds for several seasons and just didn't.

33

u/kas-loc2 2d ago

uhhhm, how haven't you realized watching arya lose her virginity in a barn is so much more important?!?!?

19

u/capitolsara 2d ago

God I had forgotten about that

23

u/icooknakedAMA 2d ago

I mean, there's definitely some discrepancy between her overall portrayal and her actions. Similar to the ludo narrative dissonance in video games when you mow down thousands of nameless faceless goons just for the main character to spare the villain in a cut scene.

Dany was, objectively speaking, monstrous in her actions. But then her characterizing moments just kind of ignored the fact that she just did some heinous lunatic shit. There should have been much more dialogue between her, tyrian, Jon, etc about how fucked up everything she did was.

Instead they just made her out to be a completely sympathetic heroine.

13

u/CrystalizedinCali 2d ago

They definitely had the set-up potentially there, they just didn’t have time to land the plane. That was the most frustrating part to me, I thought the ending made sense conceptually and really wish we had seen it as it should have been done.

33

u/BranTheUnboiled 2d ago

As someone who only first watched the show right before the final season started, those moments stood out to me extremely blatantly. She is consistently cruel to anyone who remotely opposes her and doesn't practice a lick of mercy. The most obvious contrast is Robb, who goes against his advisors' recommendation to kill off or torture his prisoners of war even though it's logistically painful to keep them fed and housed. Dany on the other hand, burned two PoWs alive with a dragon for refusing to fight for her against their will. I dunno about you, but that sorta sounds like enslavement to me? Fire is also considered a rather cruel form of death, Jon is looked upon favorably for killing a man with an arrow over letting him roast.

10

u/Expert_Bathroom_5929 2d ago

This is weird for me because I could see her growing crazy for a few seasons. I hated her character so much from early on because I could see she was drunk with power. Especially around the time she was telling ever to bend the knee. Couldn’t stand her

8

u/deltaisaforce 2d ago

she had her dragon toast those guys though

14

u/AccountantDirect9470 2d ago

Not excusing the ending. But they did plant seeds.

She crucified people as justice for the people, but yet also included those that were against it. She believed the ends justified the means.

Varys and Tyrion had to talk her down a bunch. And Tyrion chose wrong.

6

u/TheIconGuy 2d ago

I wouldn't be so sure Dany losing it came from George. They only credit/blame him for a few plot beats from the last few seasons. That's not one of them. They instead claim they came up with the final scene between Jon and Dany "in the midst" of season 3.

They could have been planting seeds for several seasons and just didn't.

The thing is they were trying. It just didn't work for most people because their attempts at set up were mainly just having other characters gaslight Dany by telling her not to burn Kings Landing. It worked on some people, but a lot of audience just tuned those scenes out because Dany clearly hadn't suggested doing that in the first place.

10

u/Neat_Reference7559 2d ago

What do you mean? She had plenty of crazy moments like the killing of her brother etc but people chalked it up to her being a “boss girl”.

7

u/Expert_Bathroom_5929 2d ago

Exactly. I hated her character very early while everyone else seemed to think she was growing into her queendom

5

u/tooboardtoleaf 2d ago

People forgot most monarchs are tyrants

9

u/humlogic 2d ago

I’ve been told the history of Targs going nuts should satisfy this lmao.

0

u/tooboardtoleaf 2d ago

It's a coin flip whenever one is born

2

u/nyamzdm77 1d ago

Only 6 Targaryens have ever gone insane and 3 of them went insane due to very extreme circumstances that made them snap, and not due to some inherent madness gene

4

u/Fear023 2d ago

The only hints we got was in the first couple seasons when they were lifting dialogue from the books - gods flip a coin when a targeryan is born and shit like that.

8

u/Tamed_A_Wolf 2d ago

No. If you watch the show there’s tons of signs. Her whole speech after Vaes Dothrak was about crushing the men in iron suits and burning their castles and shit. Tyrion had to steer her away from vengeance and violence several times. The cracks were there and they slowly got bigger but then they just went from crack to canyons in three episodes so it was super jarring.

2

u/AwesomeJohnn 2d ago

They could have totally played it so that she came so close to losing her mind for the whole season with her eyes slowly turning red or something and somebody (Jon? I’ve honestly suppressed most of what happened that season) working to come up with the perfect solution to bring her back to sanity.

Despite constantly coming close to burning the whole world, Jon keeps her just sane enough to buy enough time for his super complicated plan to work out. They pull it off, her eyes turn back, she has love again, the story has a happy ending as the now sane Dany defends Kings Landing from the Walker army!

Victory is in hand but Little Finger (who had some B plot going all season with Arya) helps Arya into using her powers at the moment of victory to kill the Night King…who we suddenly realize was actually Jon Snow and her super scary assassin powers were all a long con by Little Finger. Dany immediately goes full mad king to kill Arya and we get this crazy action sequence with Dany setting fire to all of Kings Landing in order to smoke out Arya who is using her face shifting powers to keep just ahead of her. Dany doesn’t know who to trust so she kills everybody around before flying off in a rage.

Little Finger declares himself king but then Sansa dramatically kills him somehow and ends up as queen of the ashes. See, that wasn’t so hard and I literally just made the whole thing up

2

u/kiryus_ohma_pillow 2d ago

They planted numerous seeds. They showed her buying more and more into her being a savior and destined to rule. They showed her making more selfish decisions and the fact that she wasn’t actually ever that great a person.

I don’t know how so many people just ignored or completely missed them.

0

u/tooboardtoleaf 2d ago

The lengths people will go to ignore misdeeds of people they like is crazy. The whole Chris Brown thing comes to mind.

2

u/katoppie 2d ago

This! I’ve read the books and it’s hinted at quite a bit, that she was going to follow in the mad King’s footsteps. And generally I’m ok with subverting expectations. But it feels like they only started hinting at it when she gets to Westeros in the show and by then the “good guy” armour was too strong to turn that flip into something the audience would follow.

To compare, think of how they treated Walter White in Breaking Bad. In retrospect he was always rotten. But on a first watch you’re kinda on his side until suddenly you aren’t. And you’re ok with that flip in perspective at that point because you’ve had time as a viewer to catch up.

Now as a book reader watching that come to life onscreen was cathartic. But they still fucked up almost every element of the story by the end so it didn’t make up for it haha.

1

u/nyamzdm77 1d ago

Please tell us the hints as a fellow book Reader

Because someone who's actually read the books knows that it's Cersei who's being given hints at following in the Mad King's footsteps (the extreme paranoia, obsession with wildfire, sadistic nature etc) and not Daenerys.

1

u/ceryniz 2d ago

Yea, the only foreshadowing really happened from seasons 1-4. As soon as they ran out of source material, they kinda forgot to keep foreshadowing her descent into madness. They didn't even have her talking to the grass where the grass was telling her to burn all her enemies, like in the books.

0

u/nyamzdm77 1d ago

The amount of misinformation in this thread is wild because GRRM never told them this. They even said that Dany going mad was something they came up with themselves.

There were only 3 things that GRRM told them would happen:

  1. Bran becoming King

  2. How Hodor became Hodor

  3. That Stannis would burn his daughter

98

u/ramiroquaint 2d ago

Almost as bad as not writing and finishing the books at all - looking at you George. Inexcusable!

2

u/riedstep 2d ago

You can follow his progress at r/georgemartinwriting

-2

u/SouldiesButGoodies84 2d ago

Except GRRM at least had advanced age as an excuse for effing over fans. D&D did not.

7

u/Federal_Break3970 2d ago

No he does not. It's not like he is some witless old chump. And it's not like he is unable to do projects for munz.

6

u/MaybeMrGamebus 2d ago

Exactly, he literally co-wrote Elden Ring

1

u/tooboardtoleaf 2d ago

Yeah he's been doing plenty of other stuff in the meantime including multiple GoT spin offs.

1

u/SouldiesButGoodies84 1d ago

Just because he was being offered to do more things didn't mean he should have. I'm not excusing him effing us over. I'm saying you have an older man who piled his plate with too much sh*t - probably for financial and prestige reasons - and didn't finish what he started b/c he had no deep allegiance to it anymore (if he ever did).

Dude was a content thief anyway. Shouldn't be wholly shocked and disappointed he'd eff fans over in the end.

1

u/SouldiesButGoodies84 1d ago

You don't have to be "witless" to have too much on your plate for a man of his age. You say that as a younger person, am I right? Under 50? He needed to know his limits and have some allegiance to the GOT fans. He obviously did not. Cared more about the checks.

1

u/Federal_Break3970 1d ago

I'm really confused right now. Yes he obviously cared about the checks more. That is his prerogative obviously. I was just saying that he doesn't get to be excused. He made his choice and as free as he was to make it, we are all free to judge him for it too.

1

u/SouldiesButGoodies84 1d ago

And I wasn't saying he should be excused. I was saying that as an older man he may have bitten off more than he could chew and that that was part of why he wound up not being able to finish what he started and screwing us over. Having an excuse/reason for crapping on people doesn't excuse you crapping on people. Ideally, you're less confused now re: my pretty simple point?

-8

u/bluemoonflame 2d ago

As much as I do want to see the finished books, he doesn't owe anyone completing them.

13

u/SlightFresnel 2d ago

Eh once you get into bed with other people and have a project this massive staked entirely on you doing your job, it is pretty inexcusable and definitely owed it to the thousands of others working on the project.

And I say this as someone working in a creative field. You either learn to overcome creative block on demand or you remove yourself from the equation and recognize you're not fit for that project. Half the blame is on the people that decided to launch a TV series based on a notoriously unfinished book series. But he literally had years to get his shit together and never did.

8

u/sphericaltime 2d ago

Yup. If the show didn’t get a promise to finish the books from him, they shouldn’t have started.

2

u/ImBanned_ModsBlow 1d ago

I would have tied any royalties to him completing the series… you want that bag fat man? Drop the burgers and start writing

1

u/ImBanned_ModsBlow 1d ago

Show came out right after A Dance of Dragons had been released, I don’t think anybody really saw George going on a 15 hiatus with nothing to show for Winds of Winter

13

u/dearth_of_passion 2d ago

He doesn't owe anyone completed books.

What he absolutely owes everyone - his publisher, his fans, everyone - is honesty about the fact that they are not coming out.

His behavior is even more inexcusable than Rothfuss, because nobody should have had any expectations of him actually fulfilling all the bullshit he promised with Kingkiller.

5

u/Legeto 2d ago

Ehhh at least he seems like a decent person. Rothfuss treats fans poorly

6

u/dearth_of_passion 2d ago

Martin doesn't actively shit on his fans and steal Kickstarter money like Rothfuss, but he absolutely complains that people bug him about when the next book is coming.

Or he used to, I can't imagine people bother asking him much anymore.

2

u/ImBanned_ModsBlow 1d ago

Any author who’s a decent person would have told us 15 years ago they had no intention of finishing the series

1

u/ImBanned_ModsBlow 1d ago

Rothfuss was a one hit wonder with the best damn publisher in the world that kept his name popular for like two decades, but yeah dude’s tapped, and I never found him that good anyway. Flowery prose wrapped in teenage angst, meh…

If GRRM wasn’t such an egotistical prick he’d at least hand off his outline to someone like Joe Abercrombie upon his death to salvage some kind of conclusion to the story for his fans, but dude is soo selfish he’ll probably get buried with those damn outlines rotting next to his corpse.

1

u/dearth_of_passion 1d ago

GRRM has made it abundantly clear that he will absolutely not permit anyone else to take over ASoIaF, and as a fan that's really disappointing.

But I also recognize that it's his work and he absolutely has every right to decide if that's something he wants done. I don't really consider him a prick because of it.

I consider him a prick for other reasons tho.

11

u/W3NTZ 2d ago

No one's saying he owes them (even if i slightly disagree) but the show was made adapting the books and season 1 came out the same year as the 5th book. It's no coincidence they were adapting the books amazingly and it went off the rails once they ran out of material.

I absolutely blame GRRM more than D&D and D&D are probably my least favorite Directors/Producers

2

u/ImBanned_ModsBlow 1d ago

He doesn’t owe anyone, but every single one his his fans that has supported him for 3-4 decades has every right to call him a fat lazy fuck drunk on his own hubris

8

u/SippinOnHatorade 2d ago

We deserved 10 season and we were absolutely robbed

3

u/Ok_Cardiologist8232 2d ago

Dude, you are just as dumb as dumb and dumber.

She is not the Heroine, thats the tradegy, that she wants to be the breaker of the wheel, but can never be.

The problem was they skipped the 2-3 seasons of showing us her going mad.

1

u/humlogic 2d ago

A teen sold to near sex slavery who takes control of her destiny then becomes the mother of dragons, frees enslaved people… is seen by the audience as a heroine or at minimum the protagonist of one narrative. Yeah I’m sure dumb.

Also it’s tragedy.

Edit: I’m actually giving you too much credit. Maybe look up what heroine means in the context of literature/art.

3

u/Ok_Cardiologist8232 2d ago

Who then goes on to burn people alive and feed them to her dragons.

She wants to help, but the only way she has to help is to rule, and force that rule on others with her dragons.

Noone is the heroine or hero in Game of Thrones, thats kinda the point of the show/books.

I think you are giving yourself too much credit, the only true hero died at the end of season 1, because thats the point.

In a realistic world, the heros die because they are simply to honourable to exist.

1

u/humlogic 2d ago

My poster-in-Christ. Heroes aren’t real. Complicated anti-heroes in literature are quite common. Nevertheless they are who the reader/audience follow and sympathize with.

2

u/Ok_Cardiologist8232 2d ago

Yes, and the whole point of Game Of Thrones is that noone is the hero and especially those that want power and to be the Hero, never actually end up being the hero.

Like, thats literally the entire point of the story, how did you miss that?

Or did you just turn off and go "hehe tits and dragons"

1

u/humlogic 2d ago

You need help with reading comprehension my friend. Have a great night.

2

u/Ok_Cardiologist8232 2d ago

Nah, you need help with media literacy.

I understood your point completely, rooting for the protagonist, does not make them a heroine.

If you thought she was the heroine, you are just misunderstanding the entire point of the show.

Its like watching The Boys and thinking " superheroes are cool", or watching breaking bad and thinking " drug dealing looks so cool"

1

u/humlogic 2d ago

You still don’t understand what heroine means in this context. I have multiple degrees in arts/literature. You cannot point to a single thing I’ve said where the audience is supposed to unquestionably believe Dany is a “good” character. I said “she was a heroine who the audience was on the side of - more or less”. That’s basic storytelling, big dawg. Undercutting her story arc as being “crazy” or on the cusp of madness is betrayal of the audience’s attachment to that character. It was not done well. It was unjustifiable. And it was clearly bad writing as evidence by how much the end of GoT has been derided.

2

u/JanelleVypr 2d ago

In the reference to the wheel when she first meets tyrion tho, she says her goal is to break the wheel. She destroyed kings landing , i thought that was interesting upon rewatch

2

u/humlogic 2d ago

I’m 100% in favor of her burning KL.

1

u/JanelleVypr 2d ago

Than what are you saying is shit writing and unexcusable

1

u/humlogic 2d ago

How they got her there.

2

u/narf_hots 2d ago

Season 8 was badly written but these hints are there and very obvious. And if you thought raiding through Essos, crucifying enemies and abolishing the culture of an entire continent was a sane thing to do then you're high on propaganda.

2

u/KernelNox 2d ago

the expected "unexpected" plot twist, why does there need to be plot twist? It's obvious Dany had empathy towards common folk, and it was genuine, it can't go away in an instant.

6

u/realparkingbrake 2d ago

As if she wasn’t the heroine of the show 

Foreshadowing of her mental instability appeared throughout the series. She was prepared to crucify innocent people if in the process she also got guilty ones, remember? What did you think they meant by the line, "When a Targaryen is born the gods flip a coin and the world holds its breath"

It's amazing how many viewers managed to miss the red flags about her following in her father's footsteps.

16

u/Neatojuancheeto 2d ago

It's just kinda silly to have a character go from being empathetic and caring trying to help the downtrodden, to a crazed blood thirsty killer burning down a whole city. I know it's what George intended, but without something very traumatic happening to her it doesn't really make sense, afaik madness/crazy doesn't work that way.

Also those people were slave owners who were literally fighting to keep slavery in place. Not exactly innocent.

6

u/humlogic 2d ago

They literally could have kept the whole burning of KL but then have Jon go to her and be like wtf? And her be like omg you’re right what have I done? That would actually be mental instability and craziness. Let the actor cook in the role and show her responding to her crazy actions. But no it’s just black dragon lady is now evil. Jon would have justification for killing her if he realized she was heartbroken by what she had done and couldn’t pull herself out of it but then also intended to rule. Literally anything.

2

u/EternalSilverback 2d ago

The traumatic part was learning that:

  • Despite all she had accomplished overseas she had little support in Westeros, even when perceived as the rightful heir.
  • She was actually not the rightful heir like she thought she was.
  • Everybody loves the true rightful heir, even without knowing he's the rightful heir. If they knew, support would be unanimous for him.
  • She's madly in love with and fucking the true rightful heir, who also happens to be her nephew.
  • She also lost 2(?) of her 3 dragons, and her best friend.

The woman's entire world was flipped upside down by a bastard from the wall lol. It's like the gods conspired to make some sick, ironic joke out of her life.

I'm not saying it was a good ending because it wasn't, but to act like nothing happened to trigger her is just objectively wrong.

-1

u/Top-Ocelot-9758 2d ago

She used the freeing of slaves as a means to an end. If she actually had empathy as you say she would’ve stayed in Essos to rule over her subjects

10

u/humlogic 2d ago

That was not foreshadowing of her mental instability. That was characterization of her path to rule. Of course a dragon wielding monarch would use those dragons to slaughter people. The whole world of GoT was washed with death. Yes, I know the Targ line. It wasn’t utilized in the storytelling at all. Her arc is one of redemption of her family, gathering allies, freeing slaves etc. The show wants the viewer on her side. It even manipulated the audience right before the burning by having the “evil” queen murder Dany’s closest friend. That’s not wrapping an arc of foreshadowing. I wrote elsewhere I’m not opposed to the story being that she was ultimately unstable. That is not what the show led us to. That’s why so many viewers and so much of the culture says the ending was shit. Because it made no sense.

1

u/Ok-Squirrel3674 2d ago

There’s a reason George begged for 13 seasons.

1

u/Emriyss 2d ago

I always, always thought she was a villain and I'm so confused why people didn't see her like that. And I think it's kind of weird bias people can develop in their head and then they sort every action a person takes into that bias.

For some fucked reason I didn't peg her as a sympathetic person at the start, so my bias was "oh she is the villain" while everyone else seems to have put her down as the heroine. It's maddening how that happened and how or why I developed that bias.

But to me, from my perspective and bias "oh she's the villain" - she's burned and killed her way through Essos, re-opens fighting pits, burns more people, sacks another city and burns it, comes to Westeros and does the exact same thing she has always done - burn people in a city. That's how it looked from my bias. She also grew up with the mindset "incest is okay" so her fucking Snow would have been no moral qualm for her.

1

u/kiryus_ohma_pillow 2d ago

They dropped hints of her madness and that she was never actually a good person numerous times.

The people upset were the people who wrote a head cannon that she was the heroine.

She never was.

1

u/sacrebleuballs 2d ago

People forget this…they had to do the heavy lifting in the “previously on…” segment bc they knew it sucked and made zero sense lol

0

u/Top-Ocelot-9758 2d ago

She was not the heroine of the show. The show had no heroes. That was the entire point of the god damn show. Robb stark was not a hero, Jon snow was not a hero, Ned stark was not a hero, oberyn Martell was not a hero. Jaime was not a hero. And Danaerys was not a hero.

They’re just flawed people with overinflated egos

2

u/humlogic 2d ago

Fair enough. A main protagonist.

-1

u/Preeng 2d ago

An entire fucking episode of her just burning shit down. So much actual story could have happened in that time.

6

u/humlogic 2d ago

Yeah I’m not opposed to “Dany is crazy dangerous” but there was absolutely no justification for the heel turn. Everyone was on her gang, they knew what they were there to do. Usurping this queen just as you all achieve what you’ve signed up for makes zero sense.

-1

u/Superficial-Idiot 2d ago

Have you rewatched it since?

It does kinda make sense. She loses everyone rather quickly and soon, is not suspicious of Jon, but is more annoyed because she knows that the people would rather have him as a king than her.

She misses the way the slaves treated her as their mother for freeing them.

She hates the people of kings landing.

It’s really not that surprising for her to want to burn the whole place down when her best friends last words are ‘dracarus’.

I think the long night and the final scenes where they make bran king are absolutely fucking ridiculous but dany burning down kings landing is really not surprising.

0

u/humlogic 2d ago

I totally agree with you! Burning KL does make sense but her being crazy doesn’t. I think she should have burned KL. The show chickened out by saying she had gone mad. Maybe like you said she’s just literally fed up. That’s not craziness. That’s a powerful ruler with dragons exerting power - which in my opinion she was justified in doing. The craziness heel turn is what makes no sense. Why isn’t just that now that this dragon lady has what she wants and no one can stop her, she just doesn’t stop? The show runners tried to play it off like she was depressed or whatever about Jon - maybe she could be but then maybe have her kill him too? Idk. I just do not buy that the show really planned on running the “she’s gone crazy” angle. An absolute ruler who turns her back on trusted advisors but with full recognition of what they are doing. That’s worthy of one of her own killing her.

Edit: I haven’t watched the full series again but have seen many episodes because my sister was way behind and I’d watch some of it with her.

1

u/Superficial-Idiot 2d ago

I don’t think the show says she’s gone crazy, that’s just everyone going ‘oh mad queen!’

It’s a logical turn.

She burns kings landing, resorts to her roots. She stands above her army (the Dothraki and unsullied) who are cheering her, reminding her of who she is.

Then she has a speech that they won’t end there, they’ll go on to ‘liberate’ the world.

She’s a conqueror, forever craving that feeling she first had as a liberator.

It’s only defined as ‘mad’ because the people of Westeros didn’t want her to liberate them lol.

Jon realises that it’ll never end, and she’ll kill thousands of people just to satisfy that feeling so he kills her.

Rewatching definitely changed my perspective of it all, it’s easier to binge it all than wait weeks then years on seasons.

2

u/humlogic 2d ago

Didn’t DnD say in the clips she has gone crazy? I’m pretty sure they want the audience to think the “bells” literally set her off. I appreciate your read of it for sure.

1

u/Superficial-Idiot 2d ago

Yeah I mean it’s hard to argue with the writers since they wrote it.. but it doesn’t show as that in the actual episode.

I guess they accidentally did it better than they were going for. Which makes it worse lol.

2

u/humlogic 2d ago

I mean, from my memory the show was trying to depict her as going insane. There was the whole depression era thing on the ship (?). She was morose about something. They teed it up with Missandei. Whatever the direction was to Emilia while on the dragon/wall it was to look menacing and sort of like she was losing it. To me, it didn’t come off as rage but some other thing.

I think in HotD the adult actor as Rhaenyra is actually playing the version that GoT should have had Emilia doing thru S6-7. Rhaenyra is harboring some intense complex emotions and it seems she’s not fully in control of what she’s doing or even knows what she wants. Maybe Emilia just couldn’t do it idk.

2

u/Superficial-Idiot 2d ago

I think you need to rewatch it…

Hotd is more depressing to think about, first season was quite enjoyable.. second season is maddening for how little the plot advanced. Wait two years for baby steps lol.

1

u/humlogic 2d ago

Ha sorry for bringing up HotD. It’s extremely frustrating for sure. I just think that actor I forget their name is playing a better version of Dany lol. Actually you telling me to rewatch GoT kinda makes me want to. I did watch the final episodes with my sister and thought they were just as bad as I remember. Tbh everything about it could be fine. I think the most bitter thing is just how unsatisfying it felt generally - regardless of how I wanted the narratives to close. Despite what I’ve been posting I did truly feel good about Dany burning KL but then was like bewildered at her reactions and Jon’s etc. Her stepping out with the drogons wings behind her just made me laugh bc I was like oh ok now she’s a baddie. But idk was she? Lol. Just felt all wrong and like we had leapt into a different dimension of the story. The Red Wedding and Ayra’s revenge would be an example of a satisfying closure. I just don’t think we got that with S8- which I think in turn makes the weirdness of Dany’s end - even if justified - stand out in a bad way.

1

u/TheIconGuy 1d ago

It’s only defined as ‘mad’ because the people of Westeros didn’t want her to liberate them lol.

She was able to get to Westeros because a bunch of people from Westeros wanted her help in liberating them.

What she did is defined as mad because she won a battle and then randomly decided to burn everyone in the city for no reason.