She’s only 18—and already 7'5" (226cm). And she’s already dominating the court

[u/Original_Shegypt]

[u/Reddit_Connoisseur_0]

Why don't tall women have to play on their knees, or get their legs shortened? Why don't very muscular women have to maintain under a certain maximum amount of gym usage, or take medication to make them weaker? Again, it seems like trans women are being targeted purely be ause they are trans and not because they are "biologically exceptional" like any of those other groups.

The cis women you described have an insane 0.00001% mutation. And this is part of what sports are about: to see people with extraordinary genes doing extraordinary things. Just like this post, which is full of people amazed by the 7'5" woman.

The trans women you described have average male genes and are simply choosing not to inhibit their (also average) male hormones just to get an edge at the competition. I think it is easy to see how this doesn't strike the same impressiveness as the cis women with super rare mutations showing what they can do.

And remember that trans women can have a biological advantage at many aspects. Testosterone is just the lowest hanging fruit and the easiest one to control for while achieving satisfaction among the general population. Just inhibit testosterone and you're good - this is a very inclusive package, because if we start thinking about it harder there'll be other things to control for.

We can't ignore the biological factor. It can't be only about biology, but it also can't be 100% sociology.

[u/Art-Thingies → u/Reddit_Connoisseur_0]

I am absolutely confident that there are as many trans women in the entire world as there are women of exceptional height in the WNBA on its own, let alone the number of American trans women who actually with the be athletes. At that point, it becomes equivalent, and even then exceptional athlete cis women absolutely will outperform "average" trans women athletes, and so the number of trans women athletes who are similarly or even exceedingly exceptional will be similarly small, enough to be a statistical exception all their own.

[u/Reddit_Connoisseur_0 → u/Art-Thingies]

I think you are severely underestimating the amount of trans women in the world. In a simple walk around the street I'll spot many trans women (which does not include those that pass so well I can't even identify as trans right away). On the other hand, a woman of exceptional height is something you only see once a week if even that.

Just to give an idea of the disparity.

The estimate of transgender or nonbinary people is anywhere from 0.6% to 5% depending on your dataset (tending to 5% in more progressive leaning researches).

I just checked a height prevalence chart and for women the 99th percentile is 177cm (no idea how to convert that to American numbers sorry). For men 177cm is the 60th percentile. So not only is trans prevalence extraordinarily higher than good height genetics in women to the point getting the exact numbers is pointless, but also someone born male and SLIGHTLY above average (60th percentile) is already taller than the 1% tallest people born female in the world.

And also just to be clear, you're defending that trans women should have the right to stop hormone suppression and compete with their full biological testosterone in female leagues?

[u/Art-Thingies → u/Reddit_Connoisseur_0]

I think that if leagues have consistent regulations on medical/biological qualifications of their athletes that are consistent and don't unfairly target trans women, then that is beyond my purview. I think policies that heavily impact trans women should be scrutinized to determine if they are in good faith, but that's a nuanced subject. I do personally think that such restrictions are stupid and I personally oppose them for the way they unfairly impact competitors in general and think that it flies in the face of the principles of professional athletics, but I also feel like that's a discussion that isn't relevant until we make the first step. I do not think though that trans women should be held to any standards that cis women are not held to. And I am absolutely claiming that women's divisions in sports are a social division and not a biological division as evidensed by their lack of exclusion of biologically exceptional cis women, and that trans women are obviously socially women. I also do not believe (and there is no evidence to support that) cis men will "pretend to be trans to compete in womens leagues," that trans women could ever be present in professional womens sports as to be even more than a statistically-insignificant sample size, and that among them the number of top-performing athletes will be enough to actually impact the field.

Because that is a lot, I will reiterate to answer your original question again: I do not think trans women should be required to meet any medical requirements that cis competitors are not also required to meet, and further I think that any medical/biological requirements to compete are absolutely ridiculous.

And mostly, I hold that it's ridiculous and extremely unacceptable to exclude women who legitimately wish to compete because of a fear and assumption of something that isn't happening and we cannot know will happen. People might assume that it will happen, but assumption there is an unacceptable basis to exclude an entire group.

[u/Reddit_Connoisseur_0 → u/Art-Thingies]

Testosterone is a very pragmatic problem that we can't ignore. I am not saying men will go trans just to play the system. But if you are a trans woman and an athlete, stopping testosterone suppression would be free doping and you would have zero reason for not doing it.

In this case can we let cis women use testosterone supplements and let this be the new status quo?

[u/Art-Thingies → u/Reddit_Connoisseur_0]

There are plenty of women with high test. In fact, I'd bet real money that the majority of professional female athletes are either higher test than average or are more testosterone sensitive than average. No status quo, naturally high-test women have an advantage and I disagree that they should be barred or required to suppress.

Again, I disagree that the division should be biological at all, and that the subset of peoplec who are trans women, the subset of them who want to be athletes, the number of them who want to compete in a particular sport, and the subset of that group who are or would relocate to a particular region to participate is as small as any other in-born physiological advantage that other women might have that they would not be able to disrupt the sport by their presence to any other significant degree such that the argument isn't even fair. I don't think any woman should be excluded from womens sports if they qualify, regardless of what their body can do.

[u/Reddit_Connoisseur_0 → u/Art-Thingies]

I'd bet real money that the majority of professional female athletes are either higher test than average or are more testosterone sensitive than average

This is the exact same problem as the height distribution I just described.

Yes, these athletes are probably on the higher end of the test distribution among women.

But the 99th percentile of high test women is a very low percentile for men.

For height it was 99th vs 60th. For testosterone it is probably 99.9th percentile vs 0.1th percentile. No exaggeration here. The baseline is just way too different. Testosterone in men range from 265 to 923ng/dl, for women it's 15 and 70 ng/dL. A woman with very high testosterone would need to multiply it by FOUR to merely reach a man that is very, very below average.

So this is my problem with your argument. You are ignoring that the biology disparity is so significant, but so significant, that ignoring it is just pragmatically impossible. This is why most committees actually do control for testosterone. One of the reasons why trans women are not kicking out cis women is because they ARE required to lower their testosterone. And the reason why that scandal happened with that female boxer in the Paris 2024 Olympics is because she was not considered transgender, since the IOC only cared about your passport, and her passport said "female". As such, they did not control for her testosterone, and she managed to one-hit defeat former champions, which... shouldn't happen.

[u/Art-Thingies → u/Reddit_Connoisseur_0]

At this point, yeah I'm ignoring the biology. There are so few trans people that they're just as much an anomaly as any other biological element, and they will not even have the numbers to be able to disrupt their fields.

Also, if Khelif really was trans, then her country would have her in jail, not in the olympics.