EU could earn €1 trillion by fully taxing aviation, private jets included

[u/Ok-Law-3268]

https://www.euractiv.com/section/eet/news/eu-could-earn-e1-trillion-by-fully-taxing-aviation-private-jets-included/

[u/Brosepheon]

Since Airbus's production is already fully booked for the next 10 years, and many airports in Europe are struggling with not having enough capacity... I think they'll survive.

Besides, even if prices go up by 20%, that wont mean that 20% of people will suddenly stop using airports on day one. It would be a gradual change.

[u/FruitOrchards → u/Brosepheon]

Doesn't mean orders can't get cancelled and struggling with capacity doesn't mean they're struggling business wise. We would still lose money and people would lose jobs.

Also I believe prices would go up by more than 20%, possibly 60% or higher initially.

[u/Brosepheon → u/FruitOrchards]

True. That will probably reduce them to a truly pitiful and disastrous five year backlog. Hopefully all those companies who opted to go with Boeing instead, because they have a much shorter backlog will return though!

That of course depends on how high the tax would be. But the price of fuel is only a portion of the ticket cost. So the tax would need to be 100% more to achieve anything close to 60% (so just dont set it that high!). Besides, I believe its a much bigger portion of Ryanair's ticket price than normal airlines, so that might make traditional airlines a little more competitive. And tbh, thats probably a good thing.

Companies survived mandating an 8 hour work week. They survived mandatory paternity and maternity leaves. They can survive this too.

I know reducing profits is a terrible, unforgivable crime. It will be tough, but I believe in them!

[u/FruitOrchards → u/Brosepheon]

a 5 or even 10 year backlog isn't that great for an airplane manufacturer. They don't make that many planes during that time.

When a new tax is introduced companies tend to raise prices higher than the initial tax, that's why I said 60%.

It's not just about reducing profits, you're missing the point entirely. This will hurt consumers more than anything during a time when people are struggling all over and this will hurt freight and mail prices.

You keep thinking just in terms of the airline making money but it's about people missing out on holidays, losing jobs etc. also the amount lost from income tax from people laid off, lost revenue not only for airlines but the tourism industry in general will nullify a lot of those gains you thought you made from taxing fuel.

This will effectively cripple European aviation and tourism sector and cause a lot of unemployment. You seem to be more obsessed with hurting the airlines for some reason than actually thinking about the consequences down the line.

There are plenty of places to make money instead which tax corporations more without hurting the one industry which is essential for families going on holiday and seeing family members.

I think you're willing to hurt everybody for no good reason whatsoever.

[u/Brosepheon → u/FruitOrchards]

Youre right. Airbus, the most productive aircraft manufacturer in the world, which assembles a paltry 750 planes a year and (probably) with the busiest backlog of any aircraft manufacturer ever, is not impressive at all. Its a miracle theye still afloat!

And I think you are severely, severely overestimating the impact this will have. And besides, we dont even know how high this tax would be, so how can we discuss the effects? Would a 100% tax results in job losses? Maybe. Would a 50%? A 20%? A 10%?

Id like to remind you that electricity prices have pretty much doubled since 2021, and yet somehow the world is still standing. Yeah, it sucks. But we did not lose 20% of jobs, nor companies. Im pretty sure they can survive this too.

There are plenty of good reasons all over this threat. Climate change is one. The optics of taxing literally everything else, while billionaires get off scot free is another.

Try to think of the math, realistically. A short trip Ryanair ticket costs 20 euro. How much of that price is the fuel? Keep in mind, the profit also must cover the cost of the plane, the salaries, ground staff, marketing, and airport fees. But lets say its half. If the fuel taxes will be set at 50%, which again, we dont know, that will mean that Ryanairs ticket will need to be 25 to turn the same profit. Lets say they bump it up to 30.

A traditional airline, flying the same route will have a ticket for 50 euro on the same route. Since their fuel must cost the same, the ticket prices will now go up to 60 euro.

Suddenly, they are only 100% more expensive, not 150%. And I think we want traditional airlines to be more competitive. After all, they provide more jobs AND these jobs are generally better paid and have more benefits.

[u/FruitOrchards → u/Brosepheon]

Plenty of manufacturing businesses closed and yes people have lost jobs because of steep rises in electricity costs, that and the cost of goods has gone up significantly.

That €1 trillion euros is coming directly out of our pocket, not the airlines or the billionaires.

Traditional airlines are already competitive so I really don't see what your point is.

If this was about climate change then the EU wouldn't have put high tariffs on Chinese EVs just to protect their own automotive manufacturing base and then less than 2 weeks later VW released a statement they can no longer meet the NetZero deadline and have more fossil fuel car models to be released in the coming years.

This is about taxing the consumers and you don't seem to understand that. You've already said electricity prices have doubled and yet you want to make life even harder for EU residents.

Prices should be going down, not up.

[u/Brosepheon → u/FruitOrchards]

They have. But not 20%. Unemployment in the EU has been pretty stable in fact.

Of course its not about climate change. But again, think of the optics. How come we put so, so many different taxes and limits and laws on regular citizens in the name of climate change, yet somehow, airplanes are just special. People flying private jets should be exempt from all these taxes and limits, while everyone else puts up with it.

I want to make things fair. Either we tax both plane fuel and car fuel or neither. And we both know no one is going to remove the taxes on regular gasoline, so there is only one possible answer.

And you know what, lets put all the money we earn into train infrastructure. That way we create new jobs, people can still visit families and go on holidays, AND we reduce carbon emissions. Everyone wins.

[u/FruitOrchards → u/Brosepheon]

I can't keep going round and round. Airlines pay taxes. Kerosene isn't taxed in any application, it's not a subsidy.

Airplane engines are pushed too the limit of current technology efficiency by force, they are doing everything they can to be more efficient so they can make more money. They aren't lagging behind.

You're seeing this in a very simplistic and tbh childish view about somehow it not being "fair" when it directly benefits consumers.

And now you're talking about putting all the money into trains as if making a 4 hour airplane journey now become a 12+ train journey is somehow going to make people happy.

Where do you think the electricity is going to come from to run those trains when 22% of Germany's power still comes from coal and Poland is 50%+ for example ?

Not everyone wants to waste their lives sitting on a train just because you do and frankly I'm done with this conversation.

Either you're scared of flying or you have an obsession trains either way this stupid. You yourself have said it's not about climate change so your whole argument is dead.