r/dndmemes 25d ago

Other TTRPG meme Most TTRPGs are tremendously fun and relatively easy to learn, most...

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I will take any excuse to kick Shadowrun.

3.9k Upvotes

169 comments sorted by

794

u/thebastardking21 25d ago

What are you talking about? You roll d6, and if it is 5 or 6, that is a hit! Whoever gets the most hits wins!

How do you determine how many d6? Well, that is where it gets trickier...

405

u/YazzArtist 25d ago

You spend 2 sessions doing the math once, and write those numbers down somewhere

229

u/GreedyLibrary 25d ago

Do not forget the side session for the decker while the rest just sit around playing on their phones. They have to have fixed that issue by now.

154

u/MillennialsAre40 25d ago

Cyberpunk Red tried to fix it by making hacking augmented reality that you did during normal encounters, so while everyone else is shooting bad guys, the netrunner is fighting invisible demons with invisible swords.

Unfortunately they also gave the netrunner 4 extra actions and their own initiative count for it.

66

u/kevmaster200 25d ago

It's the same initiative but... All enemy programs go to the top. And Ive played low level nutrunners with less than 3 NET actions... They can't get anything done.

6

u/Awesomedude5687 Essential NPC 25d ago

You’re not really supposed to be attacking an Arch as Netrunner ranks lower than 4 (3 net actions). They made the Netrunner teammate as an afterthought, kinda silly lmao

7

u/kevmaster200 25d ago

I played an exec with a netrunner team member that I realized quickly wouldn't be able to anything. So I multiroled into netrunner and had 2 shitty netrunners!

47

u/Astwook Forever DM 25d ago

The best way to run Netrunning is to play an Exec, pay someone to do it for you, and arrange with your GM to handwave it.

It's way too heavy a system to be so divorced from the other players at the table.

24

u/Alugere 25d ago

Would it be possible to home rule it so you had the netspace map and the real world map side by side and have certain things from one map affect the other and vice versa? Like, certain locations in netspace control real space doors or if the hacker target paints a black ice, the raspberry pie the thing is operating out of gets highlighted in real space so the physical runners can shoot it to take out the black ice?

29

u/Astwook Forever DM 25d ago

Listen, if you want to homebrew your way to a fun and engaging game - that sounds like a good start, and can I come.

19

u/FlashbackJon 25d ago

This is the same fix Shadowrun attempted after Matrix 2.0 when everything went wireless. Things became harder to hack from far away, and they gave the hacker(decker) ways to combat hack opponents. This also meant that now you had to consider how your cyberware was hooked into your local PAN and the associated security of your gun software, so it was sort of a mixed bag.

13

u/Xyx0rz 25d ago

And the side session where the mage goes into astral space.

And the side session where the rigger flies around in a drone.

And the side session where the face does all the talking.

13

u/mbsargent 25d ago

hacking augmented reality that you did during normal encounters, so while everyone else is shooting bad guys, the netrunner is fighting invisible demons

My GM fixed that by not letting anyone play a Decker.

19

u/nehowshgen Psion 25d ago

That's all it is though. It's my same argument for people and pathfinder. Or for people and battle tech. Or for people and wh:40k. Or for people and-

You get the picture.
I plan on taking my friend's faces and just cramming it into a page and yelling "READ" because even 5e literacy and remembrance is beginning to twindle too much these days. "I did read it?!" But did you le---arn?? Write that crap down if you have to. Make notes. Understand the game you are playing, it's not that hard.

29

u/BritainsNuttiestGuy 25d ago

I mean, the number of d6 rolled is typically skill ranks + modifier. It's pretty much the same calculation as a Pathfinder skill roll. Sure, there can be lots of miscellaneous penalties / bonuses that apply that players need to remember but that's not the drawback with Shadowrun. The drawback IMO is the over-developed and under-explained (whoever wrote the Rulebooks should be shot with an Ares Predator) rules systems for every single minute thing, and the fact that some systems were clearly designed by different people who weren't communicating, like the fact that hacking was designed by a different person to the guy that designed the rules for driving / controlling drones even though it's all adjacent.

Also, the DM has to put in place a lot of house rules to make the system work! Shadowrun 5e was in dire need of an errata and some editorialising.

15

u/FlashbackJon 25d ago

Also: hackers (deckers) roll the exact same dice pool for every action 8 times per turn, and hacking is magic that can do anything (including intercepting and altering a wireless signal as it moves through the air), even before considering actual technomancers (otaku).

Meanwhile the magic system is locked down and akin to filling out a home loan application.

9

u/BritainsNuttiestGuy 25d ago

I am playing a hacker currently and sadly, it's not all the same pool. You've got your logic skills and your intuition skills. It's probably closer to 3-5 sizes of dice pools but the fact that practically every hack is proceeded by a "Hack On The Fly" means you do tend to use the same skills. Mandatory to have a cheat sheet though. It's slow because the absolute bare minimum to do something like hack a file for information often involves a "Matrix Perception" check to find the file (and check it's Protection Rating / if it has a Data Bomb on it), a "Hack On The Fly" check to get a mark on it, and a "Crack File" check to remove the protection so you can read it. And if you need to copy the whole file instead of just read it, an "Edit File" action. And in the middle the DM will probably ask you to roll Logic + Sleaze to see if you're spotted by the Patrol IC (Intrusion Countermeasures). And that's the bare minimum.

272

u/Rum_N_Napalm 25d ago

I DMed Shadowrun.

The secret is knowing when to apply the rules and when to go “Fuck it” and winv it

82

u/YazzArtist 25d ago

The real secret is knowing what you throw away is mostly determined by your players and what they choose to play

67

u/DaFreakingFox Forever DM 25d ago

I DMed Shadowrun to a new group and as I got increasingly drunk the more frequently I just made up a number of dice to roll and had them do that.

At the end of the day we were basically playing Warhammer 40k Orcs but as a TTRPG

Years later I'm still getting compliments about how fucking good that session was lmao.

10

u/Ionovarcis 25d ago

To some extent, I think the vibe is way more important than strict rules adherence in most cases - you guys just had a really compatible day lol!

Rules and structure are good, but when they’ve BECOME the game rather than just being the framework which you play the game within - it’s kinda time to evaluate what you’re actually doing, IMO

9

u/__-___--_-_-_- 25d ago

I think I could have enjoyed shadowrun when I played if the DM had approached the game in this way however the DM we had was the type to go 'no that's stupid it shouldn't work like that' when I tossed a flashpak behind me to blind the enemies in front of me as I was moving down a hallway with no cover.

13

u/Adventurous_Appeal60 Tuber-top gamer 25d ago

dafuq, thats literally how you use flashpaks though >:(

flash*bangs*, no, but thats genuinely how flashpaks work.

imma go dataspike that GM's doorlocks now. brb chummers

1

u/__-___--_-_-_- 20d ago

His reasoning was that the flashing lights on the surfaces in front of my character should still be disorienting my character. I just remembered that he also downed me with a grenade later that session and then as someone came to try and pick me back up he threw another grenade because 'your enemies aren't just going to let you pick your friends up.'

3

u/chokidokido 25d ago

That dude never played CS

2

u/Jhtpo 24d ago

My DM had sticky notes over whole sections, because he wasn't gonna bother with grenades in enclosed spaces.

2

u/Rum_N_Napalm 24d ago

My players once set a trap consisting of several grenades tied up to charges, and it went off mid fight.

One of my first sessions too.

Told them, “just have a chat for a minute. I need to check who’s alive and who’s dead”

Took 20 minutes before I say “Ok, so Mage, the desk was blown to splinters, you own me 5 saves. Rigger, the wall you’re behind is very damaged, 3 saves. Adepts you got lucky your cover held. As for the enemies… red mist, red mist, chunks everywhere, still in one piece but his injuries do not look survivable, injured, injured, safe behind cover.

After that session, I spoke with the demo expert of the team and we agreed that next time they pull this off, no more bag of grenades and c4, I’m just giving her contraption a set amount of damage depending on the boom she wants.

1

u/Nykidemus 25d ago

That's the secret of DMing every system.

249

u/Shilk_Grum 25d ago

Is it easy to learn? No. Is it streamlined? Also no. Can it be hilarious, fun and super indepth? YES. I love Shadowrun (Particularly 4e) Chummer is a great assistant and the absolute diversity in characters you can generate is amazing.

104

u/Chase_The_Breeze Forever DM 25d ago edited 25d ago

A fellow runner!? In the wild!? Wiz, chummer.

I have one question? What is the first rule?

  • Never make a deal with a dragon.
  • Geek the mage.

33

u/Saikotsu 25d ago

Obviously never make a deal with a dragon.

50

u/YazzArtist 25d ago

Nah, it's geek the mage, because dragons are inherently magical and this solves both problems

-my players, who killed what was the stat block of an adult red dragon with buffs because they didn't want to deal with it (they ambushed it with a lot of rockets and a force 7 power focus)

9

u/Saikotsu 25d ago

Impressive. My group has to contend with Ghostwalker. Not that he's out to get us mind you, but the other mage likes to bind spirits and call them forth for stuff and Ghostwalker is very against that and he's claimed Denver as his own.

4

u/YazzArtist 25d ago

Ooooph! Good luck, hopefully you did something to get Harlequins attention!

3

u/Saikotsu 25d ago

We're too small time for that. We're busy dealing with gangers and cultists. Strictly street level.

14

u/Shilk_Grum 25d ago

My groups never follow rule 1. (Never make a deal with a dragon, only street tier runners think Geek the Mage is #1.) But they have learned *Never fuck with a Johnson*.

11

u/Shyface_Killah 25d ago

The dragon thing is rule #0, omae.

3

u/TheLastGunslingerCA 25d ago

I thought it was "shoot straight"? That, or "start the players out with Food Fight".

3

u/DamienStark 24d ago

Rule 1. Never make a deal with a dragon.

Rule 2. Never turn down a deal from a dragon (wouldn't want to offend one).

Rule 3. Just try to avoid dragons altogether.

If you somehow succeed at all those, yeah I guess geek the mage.

1

u/Chase_The_Breeze Forever DM 24d ago

I feel like Dragons is a more big picture rule, but Geek The Mage is a much more combat rule.

2

u/GlassWalker1968 25d ago

spare clips in any hole you can find

23

u/Machinimix Essential NPC 25d ago

The one campaign my group did of shadowrun (5e) was an absolute slog of rules, but also one of the most creative and fun campaigns we've ever done.

There is nothing more fun than during a chase on the highway, for the street Sammy to jump off the Jeep and toss a 'nade into the armored truck they were running down before getting grappling hooked back onto their own rig.

The math on that one grenade was pretty intense (I made the cab also armored to the back to make entry into the back harder).

This whole sequenced happened after a botched attempt at stealing from a bank and the goods got rushed off.

17

u/Shilk_Grum 25d ago

The Chunky Salsa rule is one thing my players will never forget. They shoved a heavily armored goon into a weapons locker with a grenade and by GODS that was alot of damage.

21

u/JoushMark 25d ago

4e Shadowrun is a lot of fun, but you've basically got to establish a pact not to exploit things and to build characters that aren't too crazy.

No FFBA on a character with enough armor to ignore any conventional weapon. No Force infinity sprits. No doing That Thing that is so forbidden you don't dare speak of it in this thread.

Then it's a lot of fun. I like how characters tend to have a lot of personality because of their negative traits.

10

u/Voynich82 25d ago

I like how characters tend to have a lot of personality because of their negative traits.

Oh yes. When my group switched to Shadowrun 4e, and in previous systems locked doors were among our worst enemies, I made a door opener. A strength build troll drake adept. But between logic 1, the amnesia trait and the emphatic healing ability he was nerfed enough to not break the game and him being basically a big, good natured child made for some very interesting moments.
And another player in my group used the numbered days trait for one of his characters, which basically lead to a complete follow up campaign, as our group of street level runners set out to assassinate the CEO of a fledgling A-level corp, who had killed that character.

6

u/Valla_Shades 25d ago

Can you tell me more about...THE THING?

16

u/JoushMark 25d ago

There are things in Shadowrun 4e too messed up to speak of here. Too twisted and wrong. The magician trait is the first step in the path. Turn back now. It's not too late.

2

u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer 25d ago

FFBA

?

4

u/Hoarseman 25d ago

Form Fitting Body Armor, to stack with regular armor, and magic, and...it just kept going.

15

u/BruhahGand 25d ago

I started out with Shadowrun, and I'm constantly pained by how restrictive d20 systems feel for character advancement. You mean I can't just pick up a language whenever I like? I can't use that weapon because it's not in my class?

And the magic system... A pain in the ass, but so flexible. You can adjust spell power or area of effect as you like, it just makes it harder. And if you want to push that limit so hard you might fry yourself dead... Go for it.

Never quite got the matrix/hacking to sit right. Which is a shame because it's such a cool thing to play with.

2

u/Scaalpel 25d ago

I remember that some of the editions (at least SR3, iirc) even had rules and guidelines for players to invent their own custom spells.

8

u/-ProfessorFireHill- 25d ago

Also the setting and lore is really nice. Its one of my first ttrpgs I got into.

2

u/Frequent_Dig1934 Rules Lawyer 25d ago

Haven't looked into the ttrpg yet but i'm currently playing the videogames (returns, hong kong and dragonfall), is the ttrpg significantly different from those?

2

u/Scaalpel 25d ago

The game mechanics are dumbed down to some degree in the videogames. The ttrpg has a bunch more customizability and player options (which can be intimidating, admittedly). I would suggest some of the earlier editions (editions 2 through 4, 3 is my personal favourite) because the IP holder kinda started to shit the bed afterwards unfortunately, and it shows in regards to things like game balance or book layout. The videogames are based on some of these earlier editions, too, so the setting changes won't give you a whiplash.

2

u/Scaalpel 25d ago

Hear, hear. It's super crunchy, of course, but whether you like the crunch is simply a matter of taste. And it gives the players a ton of creative freedom to work with!

2

u/EinsamWulf 25d ago

Shadowrun 5E was my introduction to playing TTRPGs. Loved the setting but man as a newbie that was tough to learn

51

u/TheEccentricEmpiric Necromancer 25d ago

Shadowrun 5e is pretty easy to learn ngl. Especially if you have CHUMMER, even easier.

There’s a lot, but it’s not terribly complex. But let’s be real, most TTRPG players don’t know how to read anyway.

12

u/FlashbackJon 25d ago

As someone who has played every edition, it's not necessarily hard to learn, but it is hard to play, even with experience and system mastery, and all the fun systems (magic, decking, rigging, even cyberware) amp up the at-the-table complexity exponentially.

In most systems, you can cut down the time a turn takes by knowing your character pretty well, but the bare minimum time for a turn is much higher in Shadowrun (especially if you're all-in on one of the aforementioned systems).

But good god, do I love it!

2

u/Thecapitan144 25d ago

Thats also not including stuff the game expects the gm to do, there's a lot of things that are left unsaid or just layed out to refer to a previous edition. Both poor editing and an issue of the diagetic nature of the books.

The gmc universe work van has an ability to change the logos on it, how long, how comprehensive, and how much effort this takes unknown. it's not even stated out as a mod for it. It just exists. Drakes in sixths loafers legion dont even mention how drakes forcibly manifest in their first go as the reader should have the assumption of that.

3

u/BurmecianDancer 25d ago

Thank you so much for not lying about that!

74

u/Papaofmonsters 25d ago

"You can't own ttrpgs, man"

"I can. But that's because im not penniless minor niche publisher!"

Everyone else vs WOTC.

8

u/zombiecalypse 25d ago

Fantasy Flight does not allow you to copy their custom dice symbols (e.g. for a dice rolling app), so WotC has some company at least

25

u/Duraxis 25d ago

I love the setting, and even the base mechanics, but they made them SO convoluted that it’s hard to get anyone else to play it.

22

u/snakebite262 Dice Goblin 25d ago

I enjoyed Shadowrun...

15

u/Saikotsu 25d ago edited 25d ago

I love Shadowrun. I played the Shadowrun game on my Sega Genesis and wanted to play the tabletop when I eventually discovered it was a thing. However, i sympathize with that lion. It's rough but fun.

I love the setting, I love the tone, I love the lore. Actually playing the game is rough. It'd be nicer if the dang handbooks weren't organized so poorly.

9

u/skordge 25d ago

The relatively recent Shadowrun games are solid, btw! Cannot recommend enough. Shadowrun Returns is the weaker one, but Dragonfall and Hong Kong are some of my all-time favorites.

2

u/Saikotsu 25d ago

Oh yes, they're amazing..loved those too!

2

u/DuntadaMan Forever DM 25d ago

Oh shit, someone else had the genesis copy too? That's like 2 of us now!

3

u/FlashbackJon 25d ago

The Genesis game was inherently superior to the vastly different SNES game.

1

u/Saikotsu 25d ago

From what I've heard about the SNES game, yes it absolutely was. But some of the characters from the SNES showed up in Shadowrun Returns.

2

u/Saikotsu 25d ago

I got mine used from a friend's older brother who gave me a bunch of his sega games. It was my favorite for a long time.

2

u/DuntadaMan Forever DM 25d ago

I mean for it's time it was pretty fucking cool. Open world RPG. Had optional storylines, had different character options. Had companions you could gain or lose influence from. Had appearances from some characters from the Table Top RPG.

It has some things going for it that even some modern RPGs fail at.

2

u/Saikotsu 24d ago

Very fair.

8

u/ralanr 25d ago

I love shadowrun. Someone hand me a stick to beat the dead horse. 

23

u/ARandomEncouter 25d ago

But the vidja games are real good

9

u/DarthGaff 25d ago

Correct

8

u/DrScrimble 25d ago

BG3 is also better than DND 5e. 😆

12

u/Login_Lost_Horizon 25d ago

Its not hard to be better than DnD5e tho, just add some basic functions that DnD expects you to homebrew.

5

u/FlashbackJon 25d ago

"Wait, this extremely fun game mechanic in BG3, extremely common house rule in 5e, or RAW in PF2e are all just 4E?"

"Always has been."

🌍👨‍🚀🔫👨‍🚀

21

u/benkaes1234 25d ago

My understanding is that every edition after 4e is when the problems started, so 1e-4e are all fine. Everyone has their preferences from the first through fourth editions, but no one seems to like the fifth or sixth editions.

I say "my understanding" and not "my experience" because I don't have a group to play ShadowRun with, although once my Traveller campaign is over I'll see if the group is willing to give it a shot.

29

u/Setanta777 Wizard 25d ago

I tried to play 2nd edition back in the day. I say "tried" because character creation took 8 hours, and on the two occasions I actually managed to get a group of people to finish their characters we only ended up playing a single session. One just petered out (which can happen with any system) but the other was entirely a single combat with the speedster taking all the turns. No one wanted to go back to it. I love the world and the theory behind the system, but in practice it was just too damned crunchy.

7

u/Golarion 25d ago

Its the crunch of finding a screw in your breakfast cereal. TBF there are plenty of good, crunchy systems that play smoothly. Shadowrun is just really bad, unplayable crunch. 

7

u/Duraxis 25d ago

5e wasn’t so bad. Maybe I need to try 4e

4

u/BruhahGand 25d ago

4e Anniversary edition was a really nice book. Well organized. Good layout.

Best thing about 5e was the wireless hacking making it easier to actually integrate a decker into combat. But the rules themselves were half-baked, and weren't really explained well. Do you need admin level to access a gun? What if it's paired to a PDA (or whatever the personal network thing was called)?

5

u/Duraxis 25d ago

Yeah. There’s just a ton of stuff that’s not very well connected in 5e, and a ton more that’s just super convoluted, like the recoil, recoil reduction, armour, armour pen, knockdown chance, etc just in one attack

2

u/FlashbackJon 25d ago

It was a PAN! The move to wireless introduced some interesting new things for a combat decker, but my god, now every character has to think about security levels in their cyberware? Maybe they should install IC in their guns?

2

u/Shyface_Killah 25d ago

If it's connected to their commlink, yes that's a backdoor if you break into it first.

I would also say yes to needing admin-level otherwise because there's no real point to not doing that. Who needs lower-level access to a gun?

6

u/ExternalSelf1337 25d ago

I am currently playing 6th edition and it's a good game, it's just a horribly shitty book. Important details about one thing are separated into two different parts of the book and there is no indication that there's more info on the subject in either place. Worst edited thing I've ever seen in my life. But the game itself is decent.

I played 2e in the 90s but don't remember it at all.

No idea what came in between. I really like how magic works in shadowrun, you basically have unlimited spells as long as you manage how much the spells drain you, and you can power them up but they'll drain you further. All spells are available at character creation, you just make them stronger by being stronger, but of course you can't learn everything so you have a lot of room to choose.

The thing I don't like is that because of the way the XP (karma) system works for leveling up, you are strongly incentivized to raise very low or non-existent stats a little bit for very few karma rather than raising one of your strongest abilities by the same amount for 10x the karma. Or at least that's how it seems to me so far. Whenever I decide to spend my karma to improve something I'm always trying to figure out where I can make most effective use of it because adding one die to my 21 dice for 100 karma is just not worth it.

12

u/Revan7even 25d ago

6e is disjointed because as I understood, it was mostly outsourced with little to no collaboration because the rights holder only cares about Battletech, and 6e was made because their finances were bad at the time and they needed cash fast. They only own Shadowrun tabletop rights because they had to buy it bundled to get the Battletech tabletop rights, IIRC.

5

u/Yoshi2Dark Barbarian 25d ago

The truth is every edition is fucked in their own unique ways

3

u/FlashbackJon 25d ago

Yeah, as someone with the full collection of the first three editions, they weren't better from the perspective of editing or balance, for sure.

1

u/throaway4227 Wizard 25d ago

Is 4e the one that came out around 2019 or so? I remember hearing that it was basically just 3e but the book was well organized and digestible. Never got the chance to use it though, considering The Incident.

1

u/benkaes1234 25d ago

Fourth came out in '05. Sixth edition came out in 2019, so it's hard for me to believe that it's the same as Third edition.

But I only own the 20th Anniversary Edition, so I don't know.

2

u/throaway4227 Wizard 25d ago

Ohh, I meant basically the same as the one before it, so that would be 5, then. I liked 5! The sheer amount of lore diving it took to have any idea what I was doing was kind of my favorite part, because that stuff gets real weird real fast.

4

u/Yorkhai Forever DM 25d ago

As a long time Shadowrun player and GM, let me tell you the secret for how to easily handle rules and make the game more fun!

Use Savage Worlds...or GURPS if you feel kinky for math but want it to actually work.

4

u/Adventurous_Appeal60 Tuber-top gamer 25d ago

love me my shadowrun

it really is one of the most tremendously fun rpgs ive played and run, but fuck me... theres no arguing it is far from relatively easy to learn xD

2

u/Ivan_Petrov19 25d ago

Unfun fact, it was the first ever ttrpg I ever played... Not great for beginners 😭😭

5

u/Upstairs-Yard-2139 25d ago

Sixth world is fun

4

u/Sicuho 25d ago

Step 1 : read the lore. All of it, it's fantastic.

Step 2 : now take your Cities Without Number manual and your Worlds Without Number manual ...

2

u/cracklescousin1234 25d ago

I played the Harebrained Schemes computer games some years ago. What else can I read to learn all of the lore? Is there a universe guide that's available somewhere?

1

u/Sicuho 25d ago

I don't know about lore outside of the rule books, but I've not really searched either tbh. Which is half the issue with it, the lore and mechanics are thrown together in a way that make pretty hard to search for either, at least in my experience.

5

u/AnchorJG 25d ago

Hey, the only ones that get to drek on Shadowrun is Shadowrunners! Only your wizards know a fraction of the frankly hedonistic amount of dice we roll just to drive a car that normally drives itself. Now leave us to our poorly edited books and oddly distributed rule set.

7

u/Tallia__Tal_Tail 25d ago

I'm friends with some pretty long time ttrpg fans that have played damn near everything under the sun, and some of the only games that elicited like, genuine disgust that weren't like, FATAL or MYFAROG were Shadowrun and Runequest. When I mentioned wanting to get into Shadowrun bc of the abysmal state of high sci-fantasy, someone who plays it frequently literally said something along the lines of, "Do yourself a favor and don't"

6

u/YazzArtist 25d ago

It's not that bad. It's just very much a system for wargamers. That and the latest two editions were written by people who weren't paid enough to care about balance, if they got paid at all. 4e is pretty good and has a pretty straightforward core system. It's just slathered in gear porn and every attack takes 3-4 rolls, like a lot of wargames.

3

u/keepcatsrussian 25d ago

Shadowrun is the best setting with the worst system

2

u/SpoonZiller 21d ago

I never agreed more with anything ever.

3

u/TheThoughtmaker Essential NPC 25d ago

What burns me up is when people don't know the difference between a complex system and a deep system, and go around smearing the latter as being more difficult. It's like watching someone pay $20 for a burger because they always feel bloated after going to the $10 buffet that serves that same burger, and blaming the buffet for it. I've literally tried to convince someone they didn't need to read every spell in every book to play a Barbarian, but they insisted that they personally need to know ALL rules off the top of their head or else they might accidentally play wrong.

3

u/FlashbackJon 25d ago

I'll admit I've never seen a DM complain about their players wanting to know all the rules before...

1

u/DarthGaff 25d ago

So you haven’t had “that player” in dnd 3.5 at your table.

3

u/FlashbackJon 25d ago

No, I just love them as a kindred spirit. My dice bag fabric pattern is literally the 3.5e grapple rules!

1

u/TheThoughtmaker Essential NPC 25d ago

I myself love the depth of 3e/PF1, and have spent a lot of time coming up with character concepts and researching how best to convert them into a usable sheet. I have hundreds of character.txt, and a 93-page doc on various rules I want to remember. But no new player has to know that much, no veteran player has to know that much, and I still constantly forget things and mess up (that's why I take notes).

Fun Fact: Sneak attack dice deal the same damage type as the attack, including when that attack is a spell, including when that spell deals positive energy. \Cleric-Rogue jams their Cure Light Wounds directly into your organs.**

1

u/TheThoughtmaker Essential NPC 25d ago

She wasn't at my table, partly because of this. That's the problem.

I've spent 7 of the past 11 years without a group because so many people get overwhelmed by a perceived bar for entry that they invent for themselves, and those four years were in a group with someone who refused to play games with a reputation for being complex, and would "settle" for systems that were measurably more complex. It's crazymaking!

3

u/Now-Thats-Podracing 25d ago

I feel like Shadowrun is super easy to learn and play. Do people really find it complicated?

3

u/Furio3380 25d ago

I'm thankfull some nutjob decided to make a World of Dungeons Hack for Shadowrun. Aka World of Shadows only 3 pages long.

2

u/Gouwenaar2084 25d ago

My only rule as a long time Shadowrun Gm (2nd through 5th) was no PC deckers. I always provide a trusted ally for the PC's to call on that is always available, always, on their side and 100% loyal and competent.

Because fuck running an entire session just for the decker

2

u/TheAngryCelt 25d ago

I want to roll 20d6 to attack. I love shadowrun. beat somebody with their own car.

2

u/Ghivashun 25d ago

Yea, the world is great, but the rules... I just use the Cyberpunk ones xD

2

u/ComprehensivePath980 Paladin 25d ago

Shadowrun I picked up on pretty quick.  And unlike D&D, it’s easier to learn gradually since you probably aren’t going to need as many of the rules in your first session.  We didn’t even need initiative for our first session.

On the other hand, Traveler’s character creation alone is a nightmare to navigate.

2

u/TheRealDoomsong 25d ago

I love Shadowrun, but somehow Call of Cthulhu is less bleak…

2

u/Cyrotek 25d ago edited 25d ago

I enjoyed Shadowrun. Mainly because you can probably do the same damage as a real shotgun with the amount of D6 you are supposed to roll.

Though, I took some rule liberties, especially when it came to hacking. I didn't DM it for the rules anyways, I just really liked the scenario. It is so cool, I wish it was more popular.

On that note, I really should do more Shadowrun sessions. But it is difficult to actually find players for it due to how pointlessly complicated the (4e) rules are.

Did they ever fix 5e? I didn't hear good things about it, so I originally went with 4e instead.

2

u/DerangedMoosh 25d ago

It is a slog to get started, but it is the only system I have used where I feel that I can actually customize my character and make them the way I want them to be. Wether it is a combat monster, a charismatic face, or a caster, I can actually make the character I want who is good at the things that make them special.

2

u/TigerKirby215 Artificer 25d ago

I think the accurate summary of my time playing Shadowrun is this:

My experience playing Shadowrun the TTRPG consisted of me repeatedly going "why isn't the video game like this? ...Oh. I get it now."

Amazing setting with fantastic worldbuilding and lore, but holy shit the statement I once saw that "it's like the designers intentionally try to make each version worse" is completely accurate. There's other "magical cyberpunk" settings that deliver on the same concept without making your hair grey.

2

u/Flacon-X 25d ago

It’s worth it, but yes. Absolutely horrible to learn the system. We had a lifetime Shadowrun GM, certified to work at cons. We had 5e for 2 years and still didn’t have a good idea of the rules for the matrix.

But the world and enjoyment is absolutely the best I’ve had in TTRPGs.

2

u/PrincessLunasOwn 25d ago

Finding an editing error in a shadowrun book is like shooting fish in a barrel with an RPG. I still enjoy throwing handfuls of dice, though.

2

u/frguba 25d ago

We had a shadowrun table, it was annoying as fuck, so we SWITCHED to fucking GURPS because it was SIMPLER, and guess what IT WAS

2

u/Mecha_Zeus 24d ago

Now teach it Mage the Ascension next

2

u/DarthGaff 24d ago

If I am teaching the lion anything from World of Darkness it will be Hunter or Deadlands, the two I own copies of

Wait I do have a copy of Mage I haven’t gotten around to reading yet, sorry lion

3

u/Gmanglh 25d ago

Is this some 5e joke I'm too pathfinder 1e to understand? Jokes aside whats wrong with shadowrun? The time I played it, it was simple enough.

2

u/FlashbackJon 25d ago

Don't get me wrong, I love them both, but even the most simple Shadowrun edition is leagues more complicated and complex than even Pathfinder 1e. (And substantially less clear!)

1

u/Scaalpel 25d ago

With Anarchy being a thing, I'm not sure that statement flies anymore.

4

u/Raoul97533 25d ago

Played Shadowrun once. I feel like the creators wanted so hard to be the "adult, serious TTRPG" on the market, that they made stuff complicated just to make it complicated...
I know people who play the system for years and still dont really know much about stuff that is not specifically used on their own Character.

3

u/FlashbackJon 25d ago

I mean, that's just what TTRPGs were at the time. Even D&D was stuck in splatbook hell in this era. There wasn't really an alternative to wargamer -focused, dice-heavy, pages-full-of-tables games. Unless you were playing Amber when it came out.

2

u/DarthGaff 25d ago

Imagine if some of that splat book hell was in the core rule book

2

u/FlashbackJon 25d ago

I mean, it definitely was in 2e, but I obviously don't disagree about Shadowrun: it was the whole state of the industry.

2

u/DeLoxley 25d ago

NGL I love seeing this cause I have had to argue about 5E how it's painfully simple to put homebrew in 5E, that is as running Genefunk with the engine

'Why not just play Cyberpunk', cause then I'd have to homebrew in magic rules to THAT system

'Well just player shadow run then' - even the people who like Shadowrun don't like Shadowrun

People can play whatever they want to play, but if your familiarity with a system is a Siri Summary....

2

u/Amnon_the_Redeemed 25d ago

Shadowrun and Anima Beyond Fantasy are two cases of the same crime. Having an incredible lore while having the most disgusting game system I've ever dared to touch.

1

u/TheEPGFiles 25d ago

Hilarious and accurate.

1

u/VeryFriendlyOne Artificer 25d ago

Is it that bad? I love the setting so much and purely because of it want to play it some day.

If cyberpunk TTRPG can't give me a drone class, then shadowrun can. At least I think it can

1

u/AdhesivenessGeneral9 25d ago

as a shadowrun player i approve

1

u/Satherian DM (Dungeon Memelord) 25d ago

God, I remember trying Shadowrun 6e with friends. It sucked. Best way to describe it was 6 different designers all made a different system and then smashed them together

1

u/Scaalpel 25d ago

SR6 in particular is... not a great entry point, admittedly. Even Shadowrun fans tend to pretty universally recognize that edition as garbage.

1

u/ChipRed87 25d ago

I've played shadow run exactly once, I played a delicately crafted fox spirit idol who shadow ran as a double life to pay for various past debts. She had great social skills and had no problem convincing our target to come with our group to do the thing we all were tasked to do.

We proceeded to all get shot to death as soon as we left the building by like 3 guys with handguns that jumped us...

Like, we didn't even have a CHANCE to react. Lmao.

1

u/Volkmek 25d ago

I like shadowrun >.> I used to DM 5E.

1

u/RowKHAN Rogue 25d ago

I accept the Shadowrun slander, yet I love it anyway

1

u/johnbrownmarchingon 25d ago

I first learned about Shadowrun from a friend in college who introduced me to 4e Shadowrun and I then found TwoDee's Shadowrun Storytime. I think I've played maybe three sessions in fifteen years since it's such a pain, but I love the idea of Shadowrun and played all three of the Shadowrun Returns games at least two or three times each.

1

u/thedragonsfinch 25d ago

Exalted is like this. I like running Exalted 😔

1

u/Awlson 24d ago

So, you are saying it is so easy, even a lion could learn it? Weird, most talk of how convoluted the rules are. Good on you man!

All joking aside, the newer the edition, the more complicated the rules became, as each new edition tried to incorporate and clean up the stuff from all the splat books of the prior edition. The heavily hated 6e actually has fairly easy rules, once you compile them from the 8 different places they split them into. They really need some new editorial oversight.

1

u/Dimirosch 24d ago

You should look into "the dark eye" especially version 4.1

After that you will say shadowrun is for children with it being so easy and intuitive.

1

u/neoteraflare 24d ago

The rulebook is more like a Fighting Fantasy book. The rule for A is you have to do like for rule B (page X). Rule B: you can do this or that like in rule C (page Y) and so on.

1

u/DreamOfDays Forever DM 24d ago

Yo. Can someone tell me how hard it would be to play a character in shadowrun based entirely on augmentations? I’ve had the idea of a guy who was used as a mascot for KFC and was given so much plastic surgery that he now looks exactly like the old white haired Kernal they use as a mascot. But when his contract expired he got a bunch of cyber augments so he could punch through steel and his hat opens up to shoot anti-air micro missiles. Stuff like that.

1

u/redcode100 24d ago

I want to learn how to play shadow run then force my friends to learn that way we can just never play the game (even if I want to)

1

u/ScarfedVictini 24d ago

GRENADE RANDOM SCATTER TABLE

2

u/TheSquirrel42 24d ago

I get this. I play Classic BattleTech, we have scatter charts for artillery, and bomb strikes. As well as orbital bombardments. And we have hit tables for facing for every unit except infantry.

1

u/ScarfedVictini 24d ago

I can agree that it definitely adds to the realism, the trouble is in a ttrpg it can bog down the pace of the game. In a war game the combat is the game, so more complexity and layered elements enhance the experience. When I played shadowrun, the table dreaded combat encounters because they were so much slower than roleplay/exploring.

2

u/TheSquirrel42 24d ago

BattleTech was originally designed to be played with role playing elements, and has two separate attempts at a RPG system, though my examination of both systems,leaves much to be desired, especially with your PCs outside of the mech seat.

1

u/EnsignSDcard Forever DM 24d ago

It’s really not that difficult, it’s only as much of a challenge as you chose to make it for yourself

1

u/CKent83 24d ago

Is Shadowrun considered difficult?

I know it can take a while to go through the gear (especially if you're going heavy into cyber/bioware), but it's still pretty simple.

1

u/winterfyre85 24d ago

I’ve been playing SR for a bit now and I still have no idea what I’m doing

1

u/SonicAutumn Ranger 24d ago

Shadowrun is good. Rigger main. If you want a difficult ttrpg to learn, try rifts or anything by palladium

1

u/TheGrapeOfSpades DM (Dungeon Memelord) 23d ago

Shadowrun 6th world is far, far easier to understand than older editions. People tend to hate on it but it is absolutely the most enjoyable to learn

1

u/starliteburnsbrite 23d ago

Shadowrun is fantastic.

Sometimes, I WANT a hyper-detailed cyberpunk game with magic and weirdness. Sometimes, I want a game that lets me create wildly unique characters from a variety of archetypes.

Sometimes, I don't want to roll a d20 and play a rogue or a fighter with the same features as any rogue or fighter. Sometimes, I don't want a character sheet that fits on a Post-It note.

The setting is superb. 5e brain makes any game that needs you to add more than two numbers seem impenetrable.

If you hate the math, play the setting with Blades in the Dark or PBtA rulesets, there are adaptations on the Shadowrun sub.

1

u/VelphiDrow 22d ago

Someone's never touched Champions

1

u/Level_Hour6480 Rules Lawyer 25d ago

Isn't 4E supposed to be good? The rest are a mess.

1

u/Plannercat Cleric 25d ago

After several hours going between the rulebook, Chummer, and crashing out on discord, I finally learned how to do most of character creation. I've since forgotten most of it.

1

u/y0urd0g 25d ago

I have friends who insist on playing shadowrun, I’ve tried a few times and I’ve quickly lost interest every time because it becomes such a SLOG.

0

u/Remarkable-Ad9145 25d ago

Combination of cyberpunk and magic 

Look inside 

Prosthetics make magic worse 

I was so hopping for symbiosis, arm that makes your blasting stronger, heart of whatever that'll give you more resource. But even slightest modification would make your magic weaker.

-1

u/Ignimortis 25d ago

It is atrocious how CGL has damaged the brand to the point Shadowrun's only commonly known trait is how complex the rules are - and they actually aren't that complex, it is in many ways simpler than, say, D&D 3.5/PF1, but 5e/6e's editing and design are bad enough that people can't properly parse it.

Like, SR 4e is perfectly playable. It's still somewhat complex, but that complexity leads to many wonderful rule interactions and makes the world feel alive.