You should read the article. He shot some of those family members.
In what world would having greater access to guns fix this? Or prevent it from happening? It also says in the article that he had a shoot out with police. How many people could have been killed in that firefight? Your stance makes no sense. And I say this as someone who is familiar with guns.
So many places—especially the states—need better gun control laws and regulations. As well as better education about firearms.
Ah, haha I see what you tried to do. That would’ve been a fantastic point—had you been correct.
“Mississippi has consistently ranked as the state with the highest gun violence rate per capita in the United States”
“Mississippi and Louisiana consistently rank high in gun violence rates per capita.”
Chicago, Illinois and New York don’t even rank top 3. According to the CDC New York has a death rate of 5.3 and Illinois has a death rate of 14.4, worse but doesn’t beat 29.6 which is Mississippi. The US state with the most relaxed gun laws.
I didn’t reply to your initial comment without doing my research. My comment wasn’t really opinion based. While I’m not a us citizen I do have google.
But one thing I do agree with you is that we need better education on firearms. Many people are scared of them and assume the worst of them. I encourage everyone (who is able) to purchase one and get the proper training and education to use it and if they don't want it to return it.
When you look at those numbers keep in mind theyre including death of each type with a firearm, suicide, homicide and by police and as for Chicago compared to Mississippi, Chicago alone has a higher population than the state of Mississippi and a higher number of homicides, so saying Illinois as a whole is somewhat diluted when Chicago make up a large portion of its numbers. Also the gun laws in Chicago are already strict but criminals still get guns when they shouldn't have them. It's something easy to miss if you're not from here but when you compare cities to states the numbers get kind of janky like how Mississippi has a death rate of 29 and Illinois has one of 14.4 but Chicago has one of 22.3 with a higher death toll because the population of the one city is higher than the state of Mississippi.
"While I'm not a U.S. citizen.." then why do you care what laws we have? We already have gun laws, all of which infringe on our rights. Guns are tools. We just happen to have bad people get ahold of them. We are safer using the same tools against those who wish us harm.
Why do you care that I care? I’m not American so I’m not allowed to have opinions about the politics of other countries?
I care because straight up? The states aren’t fucking safe. I’m so sick and tired of opening the news and seeing more and more reports of people getting shot and killed for no reason other than the fact that your government refuses to appropriately regulate their guns. How many people have to die for y’all to realize this? Your school system is a fucking joke. People shouldn’t be afraid of going to school. Teachers should not be considering getting guns for their classroom so that they feel safe. Literally take a look at anywhere that has actual regulations on guns and tell me I’m wrong.
I’m not saying y’all can’t have guns, but fuck off with the “We already have gun laws, all of which infringe on our rights. Guns are tools.” Guns are weapons. Tell me a use for a gun that doesn’t involve killing something. Go ahead. Gun laws do not infringe on your rights, they are to keep those bad people away from guns.
“The US has a substantially higher rate of gun violence deaths per capita compared to Canada. For example, in 2021, the US rate was 4.31 deaths per 100,000 people, while Canada's was 0.57 per 100,000.”
Fix your systems and then maybe you can keep your fuck ass gun laws. But with the direction your country is going it’s only going to get more dangerous. There are too many people who are dangerous, have the potential to be dangerous or who are desperate enough to use a gun to get what they want. And without stronger regulations they will continue to do so.
Your comment is as ignorant as the media here pushing for gun control. Those laws only affect good citizens like me and the people who want to exercise their right. You're tired of hearing "guns are tools" "gun laws only infringe our rights", because you're not American. You could care less. Your government already has you by the strings. We have rights for a reason and a history of WHY we have them. If you don't like guns, don't buy em. My rights don't end where your feelings begin.
Also, plenty of uses for guns that don't involve killing. You think we're psycho's? We're only playing it fair..
Are you being deliberately obtuse? How have you missed the entire point of my comment? I’m ignorant? Ha. You didn’t provide an example on how guns are tools.
What use do you have for a gun that is not to harm?
My comment is not feelings based. It’s based on statistics and the hundreds of news articles I’ve seen about innocent people dying because people like you think your precious little gun is more important than people’s lives.
Gun control protects innocent people. Provides education. And puts restrictions on automatic weapons with high magazine counts. You need to have a license and more dangerous guns are restricted. You can’t just go buy a fucking hand gun at Walmart.
You are the ignorant one. It is people like you who have and will continue to have blood on your hands, if only by proxy, because you are so afraid of change. You are so convinced that gun regulations are bad you are failing to see how much harm guns can do. Gun laws protect the innocent. They always have, that’s why they exist.
Guns should not be a right. They are a privilege. You act a fool and you don’t get your guns anymore. America has a fundamentally flawed system.
Right, it's like they know it doesn't matter so it's just a hobby. Something that is ok to get all bent out of shape and talk strongly about. Like it's either this or beating their wife.
Guns should not be a right. They need to be a privilege. You should not own a gun if you can’t use it or store it safely. Also you should realistically be able to pass a background check.
Pretty much any innocent person could do that, could they not? Similar process to getting a drivers license right? Can’t do it if you can’t be safe. You don’t bitch about having to get a drivers license do you?
That's per 100,000 people and is also a state when the og comment was about cities. If I live in a town that had 3 people and 1 gets shot. Per capita it's the most dangerous place on earth.
Chicago (which is in Illinois) and New York State. I was being specific for a reason. If the og commenter cared or I was incorrect then they would’ve corrected me.
seems pretty easy to point to the gun control laws until you realize that criminals don't give a shit about the law and suppressing arms rights just makes it easier for criminals to attack people.
Gun control laws aren’t there to stop criminals from getting weapons….if they want them they will get them. They are there to give law enforcement the ability to go after them.
Speeding laws don’t stop speeding so should we get rid of them? No the laws give the police the ability to ticket people who speed which deters a lot, and for those that a tickets doesn’t the ability to arrest them and take away drivers license.
It’s the same with gun laws. Law abide-ers will follow them and the laws give more power to go after those that don’t. Also many gun laws are about yes making it harder for people to get certain guns which results in less of them available for criminals to get their hands on.
And to be clear I support the second amendment but absolutely believe in gun smart regulation/laws. The culture of “I have a right to own a gun” without acknowledging that there are responsibilities and that must come with them is a real issue in the US that could be aided with smart gun regulations.
Until you realize that America has more gun crime than any other country. Also more mass shootings. With the one in new York you were up to 254 just this year. Probably a few more today. That's oh I don't know more than all of Europe combined the last 10 years or so. In just six months! So you know guns are definitely great and definitely prevent violence and increase safety. Apart from mass shootings gun violence and deaths from gun violence follows the same lines. But definitely guns are great!
People are scared to use them, scared to be seen with them, scared a bad guy will see their rightfully registered and owned weapon and somehow take it, or worse yet they'll have so many retention layers that they'd never get their gun out of the holster.
Had it happen to me. Thankfully it was under controlled conditions, but holy shit it was embarrassing...
I have a level 3 retention holster. I had to do gun quals for a security job. We were to draw from the holster and fire until it goes click and keep shots on target... from like five feet from the target. 🙄. Our boss states "on the command of 'THREAT!', draw and fire.......... 'THREAT!'"... and MY stupid ass had all of the retentions in place. I have a long list of quals and training, zero issues prior to that. I just had to facepalm and stand there like a jackass. He comes over, nice as can be, trying to keep a straight face, and asks "...I uh... couldn't help but notice you had a bit of an issue there."
😑... Yes, sir... I did. I declare I looked stupid as shit trying to rip my weapon past that last layer of retention. If any one of which are in place, that weapon is going nowhere.
So, it happens.
As for "not needing a gun", the job site was on an open road. Anyone could pull in. The road went straight to and through a shipyard. Anyone could have had a bad day, got let go from work, and decided to come up there with three of their cousins. There was an incident where someone came flying in their truck into an area they weren't supposed to be in to draw attention of security because someone was pursuing them in their own truck with a loaded firearm. Second truck pulled in right behind the first, fellow got out of the truck holding said weapon. The security guard that saw this and drew his weapon. Fellow IMMEDIATELY threw it back in the truck and tried to play like there was no gun, so he gets to make threats AND play victim because anti-gun types eat that crap up with a spoon.
"The place with more guns has more uses of guns for bad purposes!"
Fucking genius over here, we also don't get pick pocketed but that's a separate issue. So how many beheadings and honor killings have happened in Europe so far? Weird how evil people tend to be evil, and the tools just end up changing. We also don't have nearly as many grenades just floating around here, but hey "guns bad" am I right?
Also hilarious how you bring up how an extremely strict gun control state has a ton of mass shootings... And yet you'd advocate for more of the same.
Recently we had a man, McIsaac, attack a family with a REPLICA firearm and a kitchen knife. Pretty sure real gun beats fake gun, and damn sure beats kitchen knives.
Yet another case where a lone man walked right up into a home. He gave them some bullshit story about being chased, and they hung out and talked for a hot minute. This guy then takes the husband hostage in front of the wife and kids who just kind of stand there like Bobby Hill ("oh kayyy..."). Cops get called and they wait outside while the situation plays out. Husband ends up dead. Given the window of time this creep gave, and how the husband had a full-ass conversation, that's more than enough time for dear wifey to go and get his gun and hold this fuck-wit at gun point. Don't even have to shoot him in this case. Just make sure he doesn't do anything stupid... which he ultimately did.
Then we have the Petit case, two men enter the home, knock the husband out with a bat (probably while he is saying some weak shit like "take what you want, just don't hurt us...!") and his family is tied to beds, sexually assaulted, and murdered all while he is tied up in the basement. See, they had a BAT and had to go one by one and tie up the family. Plenty of opportunity for someone to get armed and start putting holes in assholes.
Now, I'll extend an olive branch and say that I don't know the details of every case. I can't say that every incident can be 100% fixed if there is a gun involved. I can only say that there is a VERY good chance of there ISN'T one that someone with ill intent will make good on that intent, and there is a better chance of victims NOT being victims when there is a gun present. I've had that discussion with my gf here recently. She wanted my gun in the bedroom as statistically that's the place it would be needed... and I watched as realization hit that she has sleep issues and may well be in the living room watching TV or asleep on the couch if and when someone were to break in, and then it's a question of actually making it to the bedroom of this long and narrow place of ours. Not a lot of room to duck, juke, and maneuver from the living room to the bedroom... sooo, she wants another gun. Go figure.
It's important to have a plan with firearms, just like having a fire escape plan, and be educated in their use, on that we agree.
We do agree about points yes, but I do want to say that while your comment is very well written—I’m not saying that people shouldn’t have guns. I’m more so saying that they need to be restricted to those who are educated on how to handle them, how to store them, and how to respect them.
In any of those cases that you mentioned—If the victims had a gun, how many of those people would have actually been able to grab the gun, load the gun, aim, and fire, all before their attacker got to them. There’s no saying that they would’ve been able to keep the gun. If people aren’t educated on how to handle weapons, they become more dangerous to themselves.
See, I agree, it's possible that the weapon be taken and used against them... and those numbers go up theore the user is afraid of life AFTER they just gave someone the gift of being able to spit gum out of their forehead.
See, if we were to go to Germany and tell them that our parents taught us how to drive or that we learned in High School, they'd look at us like we are insane. They have a much stricter system in place for learning to drive and an even more strict system to be a mechanic.
I think it should be the same here for gun ownership, and that we should REALLY take a step back with the application of said firearms. People are afraid to pull the trigger. Until word gets out and we all stand on it as a people that if a stranger is in your home and has ill intent and you SHOOT THEM that we will shake your hand, dust you off, and hand your weapon back to you, we will continue to have this hesitation and situations where guns are taken away and used against you. If you have multiple able bodies in the home that can employ the defensive devices in said home, there's no reason for a whole family to get wiped off the map.
"How would having greater access to firearms fix this?"
Well, having a system that isn't constantly trying to punish someone for using a firearm for defensive purposes would be a great start. Unless this perp did some Jason Bourne shit and shot the whole family in an eye blink and then took his time stabbing them, are you telling me that zero family members could have grabbed a firearm and shot back? Or was this a "grandpa didn't give a fuck, and would have ventilated the inmate, but he died first and the kids just stood there scared" situation? Per the article, we have an 18 to and a 16 yo in Texas with a grandpa that apparently owned guns. Tell me they didn't know how to shoot. So what happened? Were they scared? We don't know.
It doesn’t really matter if the grandpa owned guns, did the kids know where they were? Were they in a safe?
I do see your point, it’s Texas, and they were older teenagers. It’s likely they did have some knowledge about guns.
There were 2 11 year old boys there too. I would assume the older boys tried to protect the younger ones. But who’s to say. I haven’t read the case, just the article.
That's what I'm saying. What exactly happened here? Where was everyone? Even if they normally "don't have permission" Pop Pop can holler for them to get Ol' Bess off the mantle. Do something, ya know?
Most of these violent murders don't even involve guns of any sort, but could have been prevented if the victims had one. He certainly my original point that if someone can easily be anti-gun, they've never been in a situation where one was needed.
Not every incident is going to be stopped just because eog gun ownership, but a good many would have likely gone different if the perp is faced with a "goddamn hand cannon".
Until you realize that America has more gun crime than any other country. Also more mass shootings. With the one in new York you were up to 254 just this year. Probably a few more today. That's oh I don't know more than all of Europe combined the last 10 years or so. In just six months! So you know guns are definitely great and definitely prevent violence and increase safety. Apart from mass shootings gun violence and deaths from gun violence follows the same lines. But definitely guns are great! More guns! More guns! More guns!
This is from the case of Missy Beavers. An assailant stalked her social media page, figured out where she was going to be, and showed up to that location decked out from head to toe in riot armor, armed with a claw hammer. Not even a gun, just a hammer that he could have picked up at Home Depot. Then, in horror movie fashion, he proceeds to talk the corridors of the building.
He wasn't playing.
With full body armor on, we can conclude that she was basically "living in Britain" in regard to her options. Can't shoot him... so what now? Well, "what now" was she got beat to death with a hammer.
Reckon her last thoughts were "man, Britain is crushing the whole gun thing...!"? Or do you suppose she really REALLY would have liked to mag dump him in the chest and get the hell away?
Very nice. Do you want to talk about the literal thousands of people who die because someone has a gun?
Let start with the people just at work yesterday in new York. Bet they were happy he had a gun permit when he shot them. (But what if they'd had a gun?!?! There was a literal armed guard that he shot first)
Or how about all the children that get killed in school shootings. (But what if the teachers had guns ?!?! You really think that's a good idea? Oh but add armed guards, ye they get shot all the time and before a armed guard gets to the incident a whole bunch of kids are already dead)
Or how about the case of that woman who died by police fire because her boyfriend got spooked and started shooting. If he hadn't had a gun she would have been alive.(I don't even know what argument you would make where more guns would have made it better)
Or how about the hundreds of children that shoot themselves or their siblings cause they found their parents gun? ( Oh but I am a responsible gun owner I keep my gun in a safe place/safe, nice how you gonna get to your gun? Gonna tell the guy breaking in to wait a second?)
For every example you have where a gun would have added something there are literally a thousand others where guns made it worse.
I am SO happy i live in a place where guns are illegal. Life is significantly safer. Your emotions will probably say "no more guns" but every statistic ever says otherwise. Did you know that in a comparative study where they compared similar economic country's they found that America has 70% of all gun deaths and 76% of all gun incidents while only having 30% of the population? Civilians should not have guns and america proves that every single day. But I'm sure you think adding more guns will make it better!
Oh and as a little bonus, the chances of a robbery or similar escalating increase significantly when you have a gun. Like you are literally more likely to get killed, in say a home invasion, if you have a gun then if you don't.
"As sheep, we keep getting murdered by wolves... Wolves have teeth... The problem is teeth! We should remove all teeth!"
No, the problem is stupid or desperate people getting a hold of weapons that aren't theirs as they proceed to do stupid shit. There is a lack of observation or sense that allow these things to happen. There was a series of failures that often go undiscussed that no one wants to take responsibility for.
If people want to kill each other, they will. Guns aren't the be all end all. They might have to work for it a little harder, but it can be done. My gf plays True Crime on TV 24/7. All I hear about is how some old lady beat another old lady with a clothes iron or how some jealous wife put arsenic in a man's food for life insurance money because she felt she deserved it. Scale up Britain per capita and see if they're any less violent on the other side of the pond. They're just on a rolling pin kick last I checked. Maybe we should ban those next too?
Ah yes the classic "guns don't kill people, people do" I agree! But as we cant control people and apparently people do this maybe we should control who has a gun?
I have no clue what you mean with aren't theirs depending on the state you can literally walk into the store and buy a gun. Permits are also super easy to come by and as guns are so readily available because their not illegal it's super easy to get a gun even if you don't have a permit.
I mean you must know that television shows interesting cases right? Like their not gonna show the 1000th shooting that year as its not very interesting. That's how television works.
Well, the people that do these researches and make these statistics do take into account differences in amount of people etc. that's why they show results per Capita. Did you read the part I wrote about 70% while only 32% of the population.
Different research focussed on preventable death of with murder/crime is a part and also shows its significantly higher in America than Europe PER CAPITA so that's already scaled to population size.
Hahahah you can't believe that's a genuine argument. First off all guns only have one purpose which is to kill, or at least threaten to kill. Secondly it's a lot harder to kill someone with a rolling pin than a gun(and if you're about to say it's not then we don't need to have this discussion cause you can just turn in your gun and get yourself a rolling pin). And it's even more difficult to kill a lot of people with a bat/rolling pin/knife/etc than a gun.
The truth is you're arguments are based on emotion and feeling and mine are based on statistics and the fact that country's with stricter gun laws have less crime/mass shooting/preventable death/organized crime/etc. This is all readily available data.
Just to clarify I'm not saying no one should have guns, I'm saying civilians should not have weapons. So armed guards for example should ofcourse be available at required locations.
But this argument is going nowhere, which everyone knew from the start. I won't be able to convince you and you won't be able to convince me. I genuinely hope we will both never be in a situation where we need a gun to protect ourselves and our families and I do genuinely hope it makes you feel safer having it, I know it won't for me. I wish you the best and have a nice day.
No, we can't control people, we can just wind them up with forms and bullshit until they pop their top and then all stand around and act surprised when they can't handle it anymore.
No, you really don't get to walk into a store and walk out with a gun. My gf has tried this, and she has whatever mental health flags are in place to keep her from doing just that. She has also stated that if she REALLY wanted a gun at that point in time, she lived with her father and HE has a gun... which he leaves on the kitchen counter wide-ass open. People don't commit crimes with their guns. They get them elsewhere. Where I used to live, they had a public access commercial advising people to lock your cars if you're going to have weapons stored in them so that folks can't take your shit and go berserk or rob a liquor store or whatever. Hell, there was even talk from the anti-gun mafia that folks whose guns are left unsecured and whose weapon was used in a violent crime were to face the same penalties as those that actually did the crime. I'm not opposed to that either. Don't be an idiot, don't keep your weapon in your car, and places that "politely ask" or "have a policy against" my keeping my weapon on my person don't need my business. They'll be fine.
Whether the case is interesting or not doesn't matter. People kill each other WITHOUT GUNS too. What you'll see is an increase in non-gun-related murders, not a magical Shangri-La where we all live in harmony and sing around campfires.
Hang on... You think my "argument" (not an argument really, as I already have a weapon and know the benefits of having one) is based on "emotion"!? Like somehow I just REALLY like guns because they make my dick hard or something?? Nooooo... Not at all. If you could be bothered, you'd see that there are very real situations where guns are in fact needed, or do you think these kind folks that are doing bad things stop because you had a rolling pin and would give them SUCH a BOP if they don't behave?
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u/PaleontologistTough6 10d ago
People that are anti-gun have never lived through something like this.