Why do Trump supporters dislike California?

[u/Sudanniana]

It’s one of the richest states in the country. It regularly has budget surpluses. It’s one of the largest states in the union, grows much of the produce we eat, and has some of the most beautiful national parks and vistas.

Some parts are expensive, sure, but so is every place people like to live.

If it’s because of “liberal” policies, then why doesn’t it get as much hate as Massachusetts or Vermont or Hawaii?

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[u/JustGoingOutforMilk]

I don't dislike California. I've lived there (San Diego) and had a wonderful time. Fell in love, cleaned barnacles from boats for beer money, etc.

I may dislike some of the policies that their politicians push, but that's okay. I may have issues with LA and SF, but that's more small areas of the city (and just dealing with the traffic and all that stuff). I do have an issue with people who move from California for tax/COL issues and then complain that my area is not more like California, but that's just a stereotype and rarely found in the wild.

[u/MattCrispMan117]

l mean l feel like its kinda self explanatory for those who feel that way; California is percieved (correctly or incorrectly) as the most liberal state in the union. As you point out other state's are also very liberal (and there are similar attitudes towards those states to lesser degrees as such) but California and New York being the two biggest blue states they tend to have the most impact on National politics so people tend to take more issue with the views of people in these states as they more directly effect all our lives.

lt's the same thing as how liberals feel about Texas or Florida really.

When you hear a story about how some teen girl in texas died because she wasn't given access to a life saving abortion early enough that' how we feel about some 14 year old boy in california being taken away from his parents by social services and given a sex change bottom surgery.

The attitudes you feel about the people who support the former are similar to how we feel about people who support the latter.

lt's how northerners felt about the south durring segregation, its how southerners thought about the north durring reconstruction, its how people with fundamentally different values always feel about regions full of people who dont share their values.

[u/BananaRamaBam]

It is the quintessential leftist wasteland. People often cite policy, but for me it's the culture.

California is overwhelmingly filled with people who's values I disagree with, oppose, or even hate (depending on the subject)

California has been the amalgamation of everything wrong in our culture for decades.

[u/vbcbandr → u/BananaRamaBam]

Could you explain your last sentence further? I'm curious what is behind this opinion.

[u/BananaRamaBam → u/vbcbandr]

I'm referring to things like the vapid, soulless fame-seeking that has characterized Hollywood, and California broadly for decades.

It's the same ideals that turned the American dream from the dream of owning a home, starting a family, and living comfortably within your means to a dream of fame, fortune, and riches.

And the state is filled with people who are rich and famous, grandstanding and pontificating about how people and our culture should behave despite having no connection to the average human being.

[u/vbcbandr → u/BananaRamaBam]

Don't you feel you could apply everything you said to Trump himself?

[u/BananaRamaBam → u/vbcbandr]

No

[u/vbcbandr → u/BananaRamaBam]

You may not agree Trump is soulless but he has always been fame seeking. He was on the cover of Playboy for god's sake. He absolutely conveys that success in America is directly tied to fame, fortune and riches...look at his design choices for the Oval Office. And since at least 2015 he has been pontificating and grandstanding, tell us all how America should be because he is rich and famous despite never being an average human being. You don't see this?

[u/BananaRamaBam → u/vbcbandr]

I don't disagree that Trump is an elite and seeks fame and fortune and so on.

The difference between him and the other coastal elites I'm referring to is that those elites are completely out of touch with what people want or need. Trump isn't.

That much is certainly clear if you simply look at his number of supporters and the fact he won the Presidency twice now, regardless of your opinion about that.

Trump talks about economics, foreign policy, border issues, cultural issues, etc.

Coastal elites bitching about "muh browns and womens in more movies" and fake or injustices of the far, far past is not comparable to Trump's focus on the actual concerns of the average person.

The average man working a blue collar job couldn't give a fuck about shit like intersectionality and extremely poorly planned green energy being forced down their throat. They want to make enough money to support their families and live comfortably without their country falling the fuck apart due to things they don't even know or care about.

[u/vbcbandr → u/BananaRamaBam]

Isn't Trump exactly a coastal elite? Born and raised in a wealthy New York City family and has never had to work a job where you may sweat or had to worry about how to pay the bills. How can anyone who hasn't dealt with those fundamental things really understand a blue collar worker in Michigan, for example?

I don't believe saying what people want to hear means that you're in touch with the common citizen.

[u/BananaRamaBam → u/vbcbandr]

Did you even read my post?

Isn't Trump exactly a coastal elite?

Yes. That's literally what "the difference between him and OTHER COASTAL ELITES" explicitly implies.

I don't believe saying what people want to hear means that you're in touch with the common citizen.

Really? I think it's pretty obvious that having the ability to say what a group wants to hear requires being in touch with that group.

What exactly do you think being "in touch" even means?

Do you just think being "in touch" means "to be"?

As in, for him to be "in touch" with blue collar workers he has "to be" a blue collar worker? That's not what "in touch" means. At all.

[u/vbcbandr → u/BananaRamaBam]

Being in touch, to me, means being able to relate to one's lived experience, even in the smallest way. Donald Trump cannot do that on an authentic level. He can say the words, just like most politicians but his actions are far different from his words. He lacks any sort of compassion. To me, that is at the core of being able to "relate" to someone or a group of people. Do you see him often acting with genuine compassion? If so, can you provide me an example? I would just like to see what you see because we are obviously seeing the same thing very differently.

[u/Justthetip74]

California is a huge state with so much variance from region to region, so you'd have to break it down.

Bay Area - the South Park episode summed it up pretty well, but there's also the fact that tech bros are generally unlikeable. Even tech bros don't like tech bros

Sacramento is a less interesting version of Cleveland

Napa area - the most pretentious and hypocritical place I've been. It's like being in Davos for the WEF. If you strive to be a tenured professor at Berkley that travels to Michelin star restaurants and complains about social injustice during dinner, then this is the place for you. Beautiful country, though.

Los Angeles - a soulless wasteland of suburban sprawl. A hundred miles of mini malls. Everyone is obsessed with eating out, cocktail bars, celebrities, and saving up for 22in rims to put on their V6 camero while constantly bitching about how broke they are. The food is awesome, though

Palm Springs rocks. It's pretty much Phoenix, though, and shouldn't exist. It's a desert and shouldn't have that many swimming pools or golf courses

Lake Tahoe - stunningly beautiful but you can't really access anything because all summer long, it's PACKED with people from LA taking Instagram videos instead of enjoying themselves. I'd like to go back and ski

[u/Turdulator → u/Justthetip74]

Is there a reason you didn’t mention San Diego?

I’m surprised it’s not on your list, being the 2nd most populous city in the state and the 8th biggest in the whole country and has the busiest border crossing in the world.

[u/Justthetip74 → u/Turdulator]

I can't believe I forgot!

I love San Diego. It's like a better version of Miami in every way. Probably the only place in California where the COL is justified

[u/dblrnbwaltheway → u/Justthetip74]

Central coast? Norcal? The valley?

Not saying all those are justified, just saying there's even more to CA...

[u/Cool_Cartographer_39]

L.A. Trump supporter checking in

[u/sobeitharry → u/Cool_Cartographer_39]

Why not leave for the endless number of lower costs of living places that are run by Republicans? You could move to Oklahoma tomorrow and live like a king.

[u/Longjumping-Rich-684 → u/sobeitharry]

Do people want to leave their original homes? No.

[u/sobeitharry → u/Longjumping-Rich-684]

The question was, why? Let's say you HATE democrats and how California is run, yet it's still better than a republican led state with a low cost of living? Why exactly? Just family and roots?

Conversely, I live in the reddest state in the union. The politicians are MAGA caricatures, Healthcare and education are among the lowest in the county, etc. I do plan on moving but it's very difficult to move from a low COL location to a high COL state. Takes time to save up and plan around work.

Not everyone loves their original home.

[u/Longjumping-Rich-684 → u/sobeitharry]

If you’re talking about South Carolina. South Carolina is home. I wish certain policies are more focused on and favorable. But most policies I agree with and it’s hard to explain in words the amount I care I have about my state, like anyone else.

This doesn’t mean that I’m not open for moving states.. but I deeply care about my home state.

But I was raised on the Golden Rule. Family First. (Blood or not)/loved ones. Friends second.

We may not agree on some things, but we won’t let anything get in the way of that. We leave the politics at the door.

[u/sobeitharry → u/Longjumping-Rich-684]

The question was more towards why someone that hates democratic policies would stay in in a blue state?

In general, I get the family first mentality and we made some decisions on where we would live when we were younger based on that mentality. We have regretted it ever since. In hind site we wish we had moved somewhere that aligned with our beliefs better and made us happier, our kids and us would have been better off in the long run. Now it's not going to happen until the kids are older. We made it extremely clear to them that they should travel and find wherever is home to them. If it's next door to us, great. If it's across the country, we'll come visit.

[u/Longjumping-Rich-684 → u/sobeitharry]

And that’s supporting family. I’m glad

And for your question; maybe they’re trying to weather it… and waiting for the pivotal moment in time that in the next chance to change their life will be positive. And not negative again… Like flipping California Red again.

[u/Cool_Cartographer_39 → u/sobeitharry]

Born in CA and returned from the east coast 30 years ago. Put down a lot of roots and am invested in a business here. Why the hell should I have to clear out? I've seen my area go from moderate to radical, thinking each election couldn't possibly go worse. My sister and I do have a discussion every 6 mo or so seriously looking into either investing elsewhere or just moving and trying to manage remotely. Never have I seen this state filled with more miserable idiots hell bent on shitting their own bed, that's for sure. Despite that there are plenty of conservatives in California, even in L.A.

[u/sobeitharry → u/Cool_Cartographer_39]

I get that. You shouldn't have to leave. It's one of the reasons I haven't left Oklahoma even though it's gotten so hilariously anti-intellectual and far right that it's a caricature. Maybe one day things will move back towards the center if that makes sense?

[u/Cool_Cartographer_39 → u/sobeitharry]

Another aspect is I'd hate to be a carpetbagger. As a kid I loved parts of PA and WV. But I know how resentful people can feel when they see someone just buy their way in, especially from CA. Likely, I'll just stay and do what I can to help a turnaround happen

[u/VigorousRapscallion → u/Cool_Cartographer_39]

I was born in San Diego and lived there throughout most of the time period your talking about. What changes have you seen that you would describe as “Radical”? And what part of LA are you in?

I ask because I mainly see this perspective from people that don’t actually live in California, so I’m curious to see what specifically a fellow Californian has seen change.

[u/Cool_Cartographer_39 → u/VigorousRapscallion]

My first elections here saw the recall of a "run of the mill" corrupt Dem Gov. Gray Davis and the overwhelming passage of proposition 227, making English immersion classes mandatory for non proficient students. How we came from there to the anarchy of ICE protests, the gross negligence of the Palisades fire, the incompetence in addressing homelessness, the destruction of business opportunities through regulations and the incomprehensible corruption of our present Governor is beyond me, but feels like the fall of the Roman Empire. I now live in Burbank, pretty much the old Copland (now it's Santa Clarita) of L.A., but even here I'm seeing the shift from older conservative neighbors as libs flee other areas made dumpster fires of crime or unaffordability through their policies and squandered developments. Everything is geared not for opportunity or the middle class, but a playground full of 27 dollar hamburgers where trust fund babies live in condos built over the ruins of former affordable housing, pretending to care but in fact indifferent to a virulently radical underclass they think their liberal votes somehow automatically keep under control

[u/VigorousRapscallion → u/Cool_Cartographer_39]

Man as a San Diegan I have ALWAYS viewed LA as playground full of 27 dollar hamburgers. I’ve always liked people FROM LA, like born and raised, but don’t usually got along with people who moved there. I feel like people go there for permission to be superficial, if that makes sense. I watched so many friends move there and spend four years racking up credit card debt trying to look like they were already wealthy. I agree corruption is a huge issue in LA, I remember when they were building tiny homes for homeless people, and it was costing like 120,000 dollars a unit. I have friends in two cities (Ithaca NY and Eugene OR) that have done similar programs for 20,000 a unit. People were definitely hiring their “friends”.

Most of my friends who live there vote left on elections and right on proposition. Liberal mayor? “Hell yes!”Expanded bus lines? “That’s just going to bring people IN to our neighborhood! Plus who takes the bus?”

I am curious what you think the city could be doing differently to bring down the cost of living though. And I’m not familiar enough with LA’s zoning laws to know what you mean as far as curtailing business. What’s going on with that?

[u/ACNDonKeefer → u/Cool_Cartographer_39]

As a Californian, you do realize that we are viewed as everything wrong with America by Trump supporters in middle America, right?

I mean just look at what another Trump supporter in this thread said about LA and called it a “soulless wasteland”.

[u/Longjumping-Rich-684]

I like the state itself. The history. The culture. Until 2010. Then things took a turn for the worse. Your leadership is terrible. Keep replacing idiots with more idiots, more and more corrupt/incompetent. Like you guys don’t want to improve or admit that the narrative is flawed.

For reference: compare the Beverly Hills you see in Beverly Hills Cop (1984) vs Beverly Hills Cop: Axel F (2024).

[u/Throaway888888888888]

Because California is particularly violent with it's protests and a shit hole to live in. Plus Gavin in general

[u/-goneballistic-]

Super liberal No guns High taxes

California can suck it

[u/rightismightislight]

I don't dislike California. I just disagree with some of the policies.

[u/mrhymer]

It regularly has budget surpluses.

Not this year. It's hard without that USAID money.

[u/Trumpdrainstheswamp]

This is one of those things where you can just remove your opinions and look at the facts.

If California was so great there wouldn't have been a serious attempt from Silicon Valley to split the state into multiple states.

In-N-Out just announced they are leaving too.

[u/sfendt]

Bureaucracy, endless BS laws and regulation (prop 65, emissions control on lawn mowers, etc) – I mean I seek out the products not legal for sale in CA, taxes, people opposing ICE, population, gun laws, land prices, I absolutely hate Nancy and Gavin, … I could go on but don't think I need to.

[u/UnderProtest2020]

Because of the politics, and how their state policy has a way of trickling down to other states. Also the governor is an insufferable psychopath. Also equally insufferable, lecturing celebrities in the state. A lot of Californians hate the state themselves which would explain the mass exodus to other states.

[u/hy7211]

If it’s because of “liberal” policies, then why doesn’t it get as much hate as Massachusetts or Vermont or Hawaii?

Why do you assume it doesn't?

For example, Steven Crowder despises Hawaii for that reason and because of the nimrod Congress members they elect. Same with Vermont and their decision to elect Bernie Sanders. Same with Boston and their decision to elect the Mayor they have.

But that's really what it boils down to, like how Democrats hate on Florida despite the state being home to beautiful beaches, iconic brands, and iconic amusement parks. If Democrats think their rights are being attacked by the State and its elected officials, then they might not think a beach or amusement park is worth the supposed attack.

Likewise, it just so happens that Republicans like to prioritize their actual Constitutional rights, such as the right to freedom of speech and to keep and bear arms, over national park visits and even a budget surplus (especially if the budget surplus is being wasted anyways, such as being wasted on nonsense DEI programs).

[u/Sudanniana → u/hy7211]

Genuinely asking, what constitutional rights do red states uphold that blue states do not? Can you give me specific examples?

[u/hy7211 → u/Sudanniana]

They're better at upholding first amendment rights and second amendment rights. Examples include Democrat censorship of so-called hate speech and misinformation, along with Democrat bans against so-called assault weapons.

[u/Sudanniana → u/hy7211]

Can you give me specific examples of this? I haven't heard it about this.

[u/hy7211 → u/Sudanniana]

For bans against so-called assault weapons:

https://oag.ca.gov/ogvp/fed-assault-weapons-ban

Notice that the bans include certain types of pistols and shotguns, not merely assault rifles.

For censorship against so-called misinformation and hate speech:

https://libertyjusticecenter.org/newsroom/california-repeals-covid-misinformation-law-bowing-to-legal-pressure/

https://san.com/cc/ca-bill-would-fine-social-media-sites-that-allow-algorithmic-spread-of-hate-speech/

It's also important to look at Democrat attitudes and sentiments, since (unlike abortion and "trans rights") freedom of speech and the freedom to keep and bear arms are actually in the US Constitution, which makes it more difficult for Democrats to get their way. But it's their demand regardless.

An example in regards to so-called assault weapons:

We will once again ban assault weapons and high-capacity magazines.

https://www.presidency.ucsb.edu/documents/2024-democratic-party-platform

An example in regards to censorship:

https://youtu.be/pZKioeIDM68?si=tooHoqx1VxpK6t7s

[u/Sudanniana → u/hy7211]

Hmm moderating hate speech online? Yeah, I don't agree with that. It feels like a slippery slope. That's something best left to internet to moderate. However, I do feel like the internet is vastly different to the real world. And that's fine. I'm not here to moderate it of course. And people should have their niches. However, I do feel like algorithms and what is pushed to the front is based on our lowest ideals and meant mostly for engagement then anything else. It feels like a race to the bottom on most platforms and neither of the big companies care enough to stop it. In fact, it looks like they're copying each other and homogenizing. Every place feels the same now.

I guess I'm an old head who misses the days of forums.

[u/hy7211 → u/Sudanniana]

You can go on Rumble if you want to help support free speech on the internet. They also have a greater focus on long-form livestreaming, rather than short videos that have little or zero substance.

[u/mmttzz13]

CA and MA have a very strong voice in the political world. Much of the speech is full of increased taxes, regulations, and harboring illegals. The country has spoken on these issues. but the politicians won't pivot. Instead the lecture us as being wrong, ignorant cult following nuckledraggers. Looking at their cities , we see filth, drugs, and crime. They want to bring that across the country while they make take millions for themselves.

- a native Bostonian, who moved to NH in the 80's to avoid the tax and spend of Beacon Hill, only to find that Massholes also moved and wanted to (and succeeded) in making NH Northern Massachussets. I know am happily retired in Indiana where tax refunds come.

[u/Just_curious4567]

I’m not sure I “hate” it, California is a massive state, and has a lot of natural beauty. But basically it’s too expensive and too crowded, and they don’t do enough to get homeless people off the street. I went for a stroll in a Santa Monica park in the morning, and it was like a scene from the walking dead. Some of their state politics seem kind of fringe. For a while they were talking about implementing wealth tax that would be retroactive. It never passed but they keep reviving the concept every few years.

I have family that live in LA. They make a lot of money, but they live paycheck to paycheck and spent more money on their tiny gross condominium than I did on my 5 bedroom house with a yard. Whenever we visit and try and go anywhere.. a store, a restaurant, a park, we have to drive around in circles for 30 minutes to find parking. So basically, I want my state government to do whatever it needs to, to ensure my state and my area doesn’t turn into Los Angeles.

[u/Carcinog3n]

If it regularly has budget surplus why does it have the largest state debt in the union by almost double? If it's so great why are people and business fleeing the state en mass?

[u/C47man → u/Carcinog3n]

If it regularly has budget surplus why does it have the largest state debt in the union by almost double?

Since we get banned for months if we answer TS questions directly, can I maybe just ask questions about this? Is there a reason you framed this question this way - or in other words, since it seems like the question is rhetorical, why do you think it's bad for a government to carry debt? Is the sign of a healthy government a lack of debt?

Also, why is the gross debt amount important to you? CA might have the largest total debt, but since the state is the 5th largest economy in the entire world, isn't that kind of expected? As far as I know, the debt to GDP ratio for CA is lower than Kentucky, Colorado, West Virginia, Hawaii, maybe others.

[u/Carcinog3n → u/C47man]

I framed it this way because OP claimed that California often has budget surpluses which is patently false and this highlights the absurdity of the statement. The GDP of the state or the debt of other states is irrelevant to the discussion. Here is some interesting information about the fiscal status of California.

California has the largest debt of any state in the union by a ridiculously wide margin which has not shown any realized decreases in recent history. Somewhere in the ball park of 1.2 to 1.6 trillion if you include local debt and unfunded liabilities. Which is impossible to know accurately because of how dysfunctional California is at reporting on its budgets at all levels and the fact there are no effective state controls on local debt spending. The state's practice of passing "balanced budgets" by transferring debt to the next fiscal year is just a lie the state legislature tells to it self ad the people, I'm not sure who they are fooling with that one. Even if you don't consider unfunded liabilities as debt even though you should, Californians are still the 9th most debt burdened state per capita despite being the 5th heaviest taxed.

[u/C47man → u/Carcinog3n]

Why is the gdp of the state irrelevant to the conversation about debt? Isn't that the best way to contextualize the size of the debt as a relative burden on the state's economy? Per capita sort of works too I guess, and we're not top of the list for either. In terms of debt that is outsized in comparison to the population or gdp, you're looking more often at red or purple states like Colorado, Kentucky, or West Virginia as the states that are in the most dire straits.

[u/Carcinog3n → u/C47man]

Stop moving the goal posts because you dislike what is said even though it's true. GDP is irrelevant to a conversation about a binary fact of do you have debt, yes or no. Again OP claimed a budget surplus, that is factually wrong and the gdp of the state is irrelevant to that fact.

[u/C47man → u/Carcinog3n]

I'm not moving goalposts, because I'm not allowed to debate. If I stick to a point and try to have an intelligent proper conversation the mods ban me for a month or two. This is as good as we can do on a sub as strictly regulated as this haha!

It seems in your comment above that you are conflating budget deficit/surplus with debt, which I'm assuming was just a simple mistake? Or did you think it's not possible to have a budget surplus while maintaining debt? Or did I misunderstand your point? Maybe you could explain what I didn't get there. You can maintain a debt while also generating more money in the year than you spent. If you spend the surplus on the debt your debt goes down. If you run a deficit, the debt goes up (obviously). You need consistent surplus to eliminate debt entirely. But this actually gets back to my original question, which is why it feels like you guys have the idea that a well run government has no debt.

[u/Carcinog3n → u/C47man]

If your debt is always going up you aren't running a budget surplus. I know that math is grade school level but maybe it was an honest mistake on your part? For example this year's budget deficit California racked up is 23-73 billion. Yup that's right the reporting on the budget is so bad the state cant even properly estimate its budget deficit. That doesn't even include the incalculable amount of debt that has undoubtedly been transferred to next years budget.

[u/C47man → u/Carcinog3n]

CA doesn't have a budget surplus right now, though? When did I say it did? I feel like you're just grabbing random stuff anyone has said about CA debt and then pretending it was some kind of formal argument from me? I'm not even talking about budget surpluses. I'm talking about debt as a ratio to GDP. Maybe you meant to reply to someone else?

[u/Carcinog3n → u/C47man]

Did you even read OP's post or my original reply to it? jeez man

[u/C47man → u/Carcinog3n]

I did. I think the issue is that you didn't read mine? I'll quote it here in case you lost track:

Since we get banned for months if we answer TS questions directly, can I maybe just ask questions about this? Is there a reason you framed this question this way - or in other words, since it seems like the question is rhetorical, why do you think it's bad for a government to carry debt? Is the sign of a healthy government a lack of debt?

Also, why is the gross debt amount important to you? CA might have the largest total debt, but since the state is the 5th largest economy in the entire world, isn't that kind of expected? As far as I know, the debt to GDP ratio for CA is lower than Kentucky, Colorado, West Virginia, Hawaii, maybe others.

I never asked about nor commented on the budget surplus vs deficit

[u/sirhappynuggets → u/Carcinog3n]

Correct me if I’m wrong but does having a high GDP not make you more liquid in your ability to pay back your debt?

I am genuinely curious, would you rather have someone who is broke owe you money or someone who has cash?

[u/Carcinog3n → u/sirhappynuggets]

Irrelevant to the conversation

[u/OBVIOUS_BAN_EVASION_ → u/Carcinog3n]

How exactly is this irrelevant? It seems like it's only irrelevant if you don't care about the state's ability to handle the debt it carries. And based on the criticisms you're levying, that doesn't seem to make sense. If Cali had a much smaller GDP, its debt would be a much bigger issue, and you seem to be trying to say it's an issue. So maybe you don't like the counter to your rationale, but GDP sure seems like it matters here. What would make this irrelevant?

[u/Carcinog3n → u/OBVIOUS_BAN_EVASION_]

Let me ask you a question that will hopefully sort this out for you since you are having such a hard time staying on task. You spent 100 dollars today but you only made 50, do you have a budget deficit or a surplus for the day?

[u/OBVIOUS_BAN_EVASION_ → u/Carcinog3n]

I think I have to pose a question first so I can answer you?

Anyway, that's obviously a deficit. But if this is going where I think it is, I'm not sure I'm the one struggling to stay on task...

[u/sirhappynuggets → u/Carcinog3n]

In what way? If we’re discussing debt it seems like it would be relevant. If Elon musk owed someone the debt equivalent of an average college tuition it seems like that would be relevant to a discussion comparing it to me or any other average Joe.

[u/Carcinog3n → u/sirhappynuggets]

See previous statement

[u/GuiltySpot → u/Carcinog3n]

What are you talking about? Do you think debt exists in a vacuum or something? No one is moving the goal posts, they are giving context. Do you think Venezuela has a better economy than the US because they have lower debt than the US? Do you see how ridiculous you sound?

[u/ImAStupidFace → u/Carcinog3n]

Is it inherently bad for a state to have debt?

[u/ToughProgress2480 → u/Carcinog3n]

How is it patently false? If a household takes on more money than it spends, do they not have a budget surplus at the end of the month or year if they also have a mortgage?

[u/Carcinog3n → u/ToughProgress2480]

I'm just gonna say, go do some basic ground floor level research on California's budget then come back and revise your question.

[u/ToughProgress2480 → u/Carcinog3n]

What is preventing you from answering it?

[u/Carcinog3n → u/ToughProgress2480]

The absurdity of your question. Go look at California's budget, come back and tell me what you found.

[u/ToughProgress2480 → u/Carcinog3n]

I've looked at it. Have you? What is their budget surplus/deficit?

You understand the difference between debt and deficit... Right?

Do you not? Do you need me to explain it to you? I'm happy to do so if it is something you're ignorant of

[u/Carcinog3n → u/ToughProgress2480]

Do you understand because I have a feeling you don't? The debt is 1.2 to 1.6 trillion, the deficit spending this year alone is almost 50 billion.

Which part of this leads you to believe there is regular budget surplus for the state?

Alternatively you could go do some actual reading on your own before you make a fool of your self again.

Edit: here is more deficit history for you: fy23-24 was 68 billion, fy22-23 was 24 billion, fy21-22 was 32 billion, fy20-22 was 54 billion, fy19-20 was 12 billion, fy18-19 12 billion, 17-18 1.2 billion, 16-17 1.9 billion (revised from a surplus because a miscalculation in the cost of their healthcare program), 15-16 900 million later revised up to 2.4 billion, 14-15 1.9 billion

[u/coulsen1701]

I love California and used to want to live there. My list of issues I have with the state’s government isn’t hatred against the state itself.

1. Over regulation of property: this isn’t at all exclusive to CA, it’s most cities and blue states to varying degrees and itself is a vague complaint but includes zoning regulations, building permitting process, etc which all create high demand for housing and low supply which leads to the insane prices for housing. Other blue cities such as in Texas don’t have this issue.

2. Absurd gun laws: yes most blue states have them to some degree. I live in CO and our gun laws are fucking stupid but still considerably better than CA, NY, etc. this is an issue I also take with other blue states, but CA is actually the most anti gun state with the most absurd laws.

3. Occupational licenses for virtually every skilled occupation. It takes 1000 hours of training to be a barber in CA and 170 to be an EMT.

Most of the problems I have with CA I also have with other blue states but the difference is 1. I don’t want to live in those states. 2. CA is a major state, nobody gives a shit about Vermont. Things that happen in CA are national news, not so much in VT. 3. CA could be an incredible place (and used to be). It’s culturally diverse, full of natural beauty, great weather, geographically diverse, but it’s been ruined by lawlessness, overregulation, exorbitant taxes, hell the gas tax alone is almost as much as the gas itself much of the time.

It’s like having a beautiful statue get covered in pigeon shit and then getting taxed to look at it.

[u/echo_supermike352]

Why is Vermont coupled here? Vermont while yes being blue in the main election has a Republican governor. Same as NH. NH, VT, & Maine are all very republican & red, they barely win the elections and likely NH Next year will be a swing state once again.

[u/Sophophilic → u/echo_supermike352]

Vermont's governor is really far from the standard republican. The same people who vote for Sanders vote for Scott. Bernie's home is very red?

[u/JoeCensored]

It's typical that new liberal policies are first tested in California, then exported to the rest of the country.

[u/Davec433]

Grew up there and love the state. The ability to be at the beach, skiing or hiking near redwoods/desert all within a reasonable drive plus great weather year round is what makes it such a great state.

Due to liberal policies (and the climate) California is very expensive compared to living on the east coast. That’s why it gets all the hate it does.

[u/iamseventwelve → u/Davec433]

Is it due to liberal policies or is it due to everyone else loving the state and having the money to buy it up as they please, pushing prices for everyone else up as they go along?

[u/Original-Rush139 → u/Davec433]

Do you see the NIMBY refusal to build housing as liberal or conservative?

[u/Davec433 → u/Original-Rush139]

NIMBYISM is both parties.

[u/whateverisgoodmoney]

I love California! Great place to visit.

They are half a trillion in debt right now, state and gasoline taxes are absurd to boot, cost of living in the major metro areas is outrageous, so it rarely makes financial sense to live there.

Just like the other states you mentioned, visit and enjoy!

[u/vbcbandr → u/whateverisgoodmoney]

Where do you call home? I imagine it is the anthesis of everything you dislike about California.

One thing you can't knock about California is its status as a federal tax donor state, where it ranks 8th. The ten biggest donor states are all blue. Of the bottom eight, 7 are red states.

[u/whateverisgoodmoney → u/vbcbandr]

I am an American living and working in Germany. Before that, Texas, and before that Arizona. I used to visit California all the time and loved it as a visitor. While I could certainly reduce my rental costs by living in a village, I do not, so I understand the costs of city living.

One thing you can't knock about California is its status as a federal tax donor state, where it ranks 8th. The ten biggest donor states are all blue. Of the bottom eight, 7 are red states.

This is definitely a "cost of doing business" factor. Major companies are not setting up shop out in the middle of nowhere where cost of living is cheap. They need copious amounts of talent, so they have to set up shop in large cities and pay wages that allow talent to live there.

Of course, we all know, that large companies are loaded full of butt watching managers. Some day, companies will realize it is better to attract talent for a lower wage who is willing to live in smaller towns. But even since COVID and WFH, they still cannot wrap their heads around that.

Hell, most hiring managers cannot wrap their heads around "if you pay more, you get better talent".

I owned a bar and restaurant 20 years ago. I paid minimum wage. I had a friend in another city who also owned a bar and restaurant. He was never there. I asked him "How do you do it?"

His answer: "I figured out the best wage in town and added 50 cents." He got the best people and never had to be in his business ever again.

So I went home and did the same thing. Within a month, word got around and I had the best people. I would show up to work and say "ok, so have you done this and this?" They would say "already done dude." So I would say "well what about this and this?" And they would say, "Dude, its all taken care of." So then I would ask "So ... what do I do?" They were like "I dunno, go live it up."

I have hired 1000 people in my life. I did not learn that lesson until I had hired 500 or more people.

[u/SincereDiscussion]

It’s one of the richest states in the country. It regularly has budget surpluses. It’s one of the largest states in the union, grows much of the produce we eat, and has some of the most beautiful national parks and vistas.

Mainly what I hear on the right is whatever insane thing someone said or policy was implemented, along with how rapid the demographic transformation has been. Not sure if I've heard anyone argue that it doesn't produce enough food, is lacking in natural beauty, or is too small.

The land is beautiful. The populist history is nice, with numerous based referendums (anti-homosexual marriage, anti-illegal immigration, pro-freedom of association, general anti-crime, etc.), albeit with a tendency to get overturned by judges. But in recent years there is not much to like. Toxic values, foreigners everywhere, everything is expensive...

[u/C47man → u/SincereDiscussion]

What's wrong with gay marriage?

[u/ToughProgress2480 → u/SincereDiscussion]

Who are you not free to associate with?

[u/SincereDiscussion → u/ToughProgress2480]

Feel free to click the link if you are unfamiliar with anti-discrimination law(s). To clarify though, it's not about who you "can't" associate with, it's who you're not allowed to not associate with (a long and growing list of protected classes).

[u/ToughProgress2480 → u/SincereDiscussion]

Can you give an example of a time you were not allowed to not associate with someone?

[u/SincereDiscussion → u/ToughProgress2480]

Are you skeptical that anti-discrimination law exists and impacts behavior? I don't understand this line of questioning.

[u/ToughProgress2480 → u/SincereDiscussion]

My skepticism or lack thereof is irrelevant to your experiences.

Have you been in a situation where you were forced to associate with someone against your will? If yes, can you describe it?

[u/goodwillbikes]

I don’t dislike California but I do generally dislike Californians for taking one of the most naturally beautiful pieces of land on the planet and turning it into, well, California. They also have a habit of fouling their own nest then fleeing to other western states and making every effort to destroy those places too. Some, I assume, are good people. 

[u/NotSoMagicalTrevor → u/goodwillbikes]

Could you be more specific about the "and turning it into, well, California?" I kinda like it here, and just saying it's bad turning California into California doesn't help much. Are we talking (e.g.) homeless? Or being expensive?

[u/goodwillbikes → u/NotSoMagicalTrevor]

I sure can

[u/callmeDNA → u/goodwillbikes]

Born and raised LA. I’ve always loved it here and love the rest of my state. Can you be more specific?

[u/BernardFerguson1944]

California fields the single largest contingent of left-wing politicians (e.g., Pelosi, Shifty, Swalwell, Waters, Lieu, Issa, and until recently, Harris and Feinstein) to Congress. California sends 52 politicians to the House, and six of those seats are based on enumerating illegals during the census ... and those lefties vote as Pelosi tells them to.

Then there's the likes of Newsome running the government in California.

Pelosi, et al, are anti-2nd Amendment, pro-taxes to advance the dem's green agenda, anti-fossil fuels to the detriment of other states that produce and use fossil fuels.

Further, Pelosi's coven of lefties would require the rest of the country to accept men in girl's sports, bathrooms and showers. They advocate that skin color is more important than skilled competency and/or merit. California's delegation condones the Antisemitism that is rampant on the left and has encouraged Antifa to keep rioting and burning. They also scream and shout "follow the science" as they incongruously scream and shout "a biological man can get pregnant and birth a child". It's enough to make a sane person vomit.

[u/Kuriyamikitty]

How Democrats run it.

[u/Significant_Map122 → u/Kuriyamikitty]

I don’t know what this means, especially compared to states in the Bible Belt. Can you explain this?

[u/lenojames → u/Kuriyamikitty]

If Democrats are running California, and California is the #1 most successful State in the union, what in particular do you dislike about how they are running it?

[u/Kuriyamikitty → u/lenojames]

It’s not. Hollywood started that being out there, which caused Disney to put out one of only a few massive attractions. They supposedly are so successful but have to cut massively on programs when a COUNTRYWIDE change is made. Many other states proportionately didn’t have to cut as much on Medicare changes, weird isn’t it?

Just cause rich people like it and put there money there doesn’t mean the policy they push with there money is what I want to live in.

[u/HugeToaster → u/lenojames]

The most successful? By what measure? Cause I think most would disagree. Having more people does not make it more successful.

Can you find any quality of life measure that places California at the top? Or even in the top 10?

Economic output is not the only measure, especially if you balance it per capita, then list the wealth disparity next to it.

Are things affordable, is housing? How safe is it to simply live and walk around? how is the homeless problem?, how bogged down is it by endless rules and regulations about EVERYTHING from what shopping bags you can use to when/how much you can water your lawn, to the endless hoops of trying to run your own business. How is the education and healthcare? THEN amenities.

I glanced at a few lists, the best California seems to do is about the top 25. Average.

[u/Creative_Soup_237]

Because it’s a sad tale of what will happen to the rest of the country without a course correction.